1 00:00:10,879 --> 00:00:08,570 on this episode of skeptical there's 2 00:00:13,549 --> 00:00:10,889 this famous quote about truth 3 00:00:15,980 --> 00:00:13,559 passing through three stages first it's 4 00:00:18,109 --> 00:00:15,990 ridiculed second it's violently opposed 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:18,119 and third its accept as being 6 00:00:23,570 --> 00:00:20,490 self-evident and I'm reading your 7 00:00:25,580 --> 00:00:23,580 critics the scathing criticisms of your 8 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:25,590 work and I'm going this is exactly 9 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:27,689 what's happening here I mean folks go to 10 00:00:32,870 --> 00:00:30,510 the Wikipedia entry for Caesars Messiah 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:32,880 and you read these guys saying again as 12 00:00:38,270 --> 00:00:35,690 Joe has meant you know Richard carrier 13 00:00:41,180 --> 00:00:38,280 atheist biblical scholar highly 14 00:00:43,610 --> 00:00:41,190 credentialed you know Robert price very 15 00:00:45,290 --> 00:00:43,620 well credentialed J throws himself in 16 00:00:46,850 --> 00:00:45,300 that category take Bart internment all 17 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:46,860 these people and they're all saying the 18 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:50,129 same thing that was full of crap oh but 19 00:00:55,819 --> 00:00:51,989 he's right about the Bible being 20 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:55,829 pro-roman and I just wanted to scream I 21 00:01:01,340 --> 00:00:57,690 mean this is to me this is what's 22 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:01,350 relevant to today's lack of analysis 23 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:05,670 lack of insight I mean what the heck do 24 00:01:12,710 --> 00:01:10,530 you mean the Bible is pro-roman that is 25 00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:12,720 the whole story if the Bible is 26 00:01:16,249 --> 00:01:13,710 pro-roman 27 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:16,259 then Christianity actually you know it 28 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:18,740 is not what we think it is 29 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:21,420 once you've accept the fact that it's 30 00:01:28,370 --> 00:01:25,770 Pro Rome and then you need to take step 31 00:01:30,679 --> 00:01:28,380 B and say well then the Romans probably 32 00:01:33,530 --> 00:01:30,689 had an influence in producing it and now 33 00:01:36,679 --> 00:01:33,540 at that point then you have these events 34 00:01:38,390 --> 00:01:36,689 which are oddly parallel between you 35 00:01:41,569 --> 00:01:38,400 know the Roman military campaign in 36 00:01:43,999 --> 00:01:41,579 Jesus's ministry and frankly at that 37 00:01:45,130 --> 00:01:44,009 point how do you even deny that one is 38 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:45,140 related to the other 39 00:02:01,640 --> 00:01:59,440 [Music] 40 00:02:03,470 --> 00:02:01,650 welcome to skeptical where we explore 41 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:03,480 controversial science and spirituality 42 00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:05,490 with leading researchers thinkers and 43 00:02:10,609 --> 00:02:08,040 their critics I'm your host Alex Karras 44 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:10,619 and I'm still struggling a little bit 45 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:13,350 with this introduction because this 46 00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:15,420 interview that I'm about to play already 47 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:18,750 has a long introduction already but I 48 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:21,840 feel like I need an intro to the intro 49 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:23,490 so let me get to it a couple episodes 50 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:27,210 ago I did an interview with Jay Dyer Jay 51 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:29,610 is a guy who hosts a website called Jays 52 00:02:33,370 --> 00:02:31,410 analysis he does all this kind of 53 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:33,380 analysis of film and culture and 54 00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:35,730 esoteric Hollywood was this book that he 55 00:02:40,550 --> 00:02:37,710 wrote for a very good book that lays out 56 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:40,560 all this excellent evidence for these 57 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:43,740 esoteric and occult symbols and themes 58 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:46,290 in movies so the thing I really wanted 59 00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:47,880 to bring to the forefront in that 60 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:50,580 interview with Jay was hey aren't we all 61 00:02:56,750 --> 00:02:53,100 just suck euler atheists here I mean 62 00:02:58,910 --> 00:02:56,760 what's going on coltd esoteric themes 63 00:03:01,580 --> 00:02:58,920 and movies I mean I think we all have a 64 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:01,590 sense the pets bear but at the same time 65 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:04,350 as I looked into Jays work I found that 66 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:06,570 even though his analysis of this 67 00:03:12,830 --> 00:03:09,000 occulted Hollywood thing was quite good 68 00:03:15,710 --> 00:03:12,840 all his conclusions led back to his 69 00:03:17,990 --> 00:03:15,720 Orthodox Christian worldview that is 70 00:03:19,970 --> 00:03:18,000 this is all bad because it's all of 71 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:19,980 Satan and everything we need to know 72 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:22,110 about it is right there in the Bible now 73 00:03:27,470 --> 00:03:23,640 let me switch gears for a minute because 74 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:27,480 while you might not like Jays answer the 75 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:29,010 one thing the kind of skeptical thing 76 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:31,410 that I would do is flip that around and 77 00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:33,330 look at the other side that I was just 78 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:35,280 alluding to the mainstream view which is 79 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:38,070 complete denial right says a cult what a 80 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:38,610 cult 81 00:03:43,580 --> 00:03:41,250 it's just misguided people dressed up in 82 00:03:44,060 --> 00:03:43,590 weird costumes flashing symbols eat each 83 00:03:45,830 --> 00:03:44,070 other 84 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:45,840 never mind the hundreds of hundreds of 85 00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:49,560 years of history of this never mind any 86 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:51,750 insiders that have revealed all this 87 00:03:58,759 --> 00:03:55,830 stuff never mind any attempts that 88 00:04:01,009 --> 00:03:58,769 anyone ever makes to understanding these 89 00:04:05,150 --> 00:04:01,019 extended consciousness realms because 90 00:04:06,979 --> 00:04:05,160 hey they can't exist so keep that in 91 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:06,989 mind you know you're usually being 92 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:09,930 presented with just two choices here 93 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:12,510 believe in the Bible or believe it's all 94 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:14,010 in your head because we're all 95 00:04:18,830 --> 00:04:15,810 biological robots in English universe 96 00:04:20,749 --> 00:04:18,840 now I wanted to lay out that bit of 97 00:04:24,529 --> 00:04:20,759 background because as you know I think 98 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:24,539 the secular humanist atheists why people 99 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:27,449 believe weird things mean is disastrous 100 00:04:32,420 --> 00:04:30,240 and it leads nowhere and not only that 101 00:04:36,590 --> 00:04:32,430 but it's been proven wrong over and over 102 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:36,600 again but I also think the Bible tells a 103 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:39,330 soul meme doesn't hold up very well 104 00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:42,090 either and that's what I really wanted 105 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:45,240 to talk about in this skeptic o episode 106 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:48,180 with my guest geo Atwell of Caesars 107 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:51,030 Messiah now one more thing before I play 108 00:04:56,270 --> 00:04:53,250 the interview and this is one of those 109 00:04:59,839 --> 00:04:56,280 things it really makes this for me like 110 00:05:01,909 --> 00:04:59,849 a quintessential skeptical episode I 111 00:05:04,010 --> 00:05:01,919 mean I've had to tell everyone I can 112 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:04,020 beforehand I tell my wife you know I 113 00:05:06,890 --> 00:05:05,580 told you guys you know my wife like 114 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:06,900 never listens to skeptical I like 115 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:08,580 Saturday night floor strike you gotta 116 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:09,810 listen to this you got to understand 117 00:05:14,149 --> 00:05:10,740 what's happening here 118 00:05:17,390 --> 00:05:14,159 cuz this is to me what kind of skeptical 119 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:17,400 is all about so if you remember my 120 00:05:24,469 --> 00:05:20,610 original interview with Jay you'll 121 00:05:26,570 --> 00:05:24,479 recall that he was all guns blazing when 122 00:05:28,850 --> 00:05:26,580 it came to debating this stuff he was 123 00:05:30,379 --> 00:05:28,860 like oh I'm sorry I hit you so hard on 124 00:05:32,899 --> 00:05:30,389 this stuff but I really know this stuff 125 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:32,909 and I know I'm right and observation 126 00:05:36,409 --> 00:05:34,770 that well anytime anyplace and all that 127 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:36,419 he got playing some clips from what he 128 00:05:40,850 --> 00:05:38,310 said okay well I mean I wrote a paper 129 00:05:44,390 --> 00:05:40,860 about this a grad level paper ten years 130 00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:44,400 ago dealing with Wars the Jews and 131 00:05:49,580 --> 00:05:46,380 Matthew 24 and Luke 21 so I'm not trying 132 00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:49,590 to arrogant but I'm just saying I again 133 00:05:53,330 --> 00:05:51,840 if you if you haven't read you know the 134 00:05:55,879 --> 00:05:53,340 patristic literature from the first 135 00:05:57,860 --> 00:05:55,889 three centuries and you haven't looked 136 00:05:59,240 --> 00:05:57,870 into you know the fact that the church 137 00:06:01,610 --> 00:05:59,250 was persecuted for the first three years 138 00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:01,620 by the Roman Empire I mean this thesis 139 00:06:06,980 --> 00:06:05,070 is really kind of ridiculous well I 140 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:06,990 would be glad to debate any of these 141 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:08,970 topic if you want to have a debate or if 142 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:10,289 anybody else wants to debate it I'm 143 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:11,690 that's fine with me 144 00:06:17,899 --> 00:06:15,330 so while he's saying all this in my head 145 00:06:20,149 --> 00:06:17,909 I'm thinking man I've been through this 146 00:06:22,580 --> 00:06:20,159 over and over again with all critics I 147 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:22,590 went through it with Richard Carey 148 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:24,510 I went through it with the episode I did 149 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:26,850 with Joel watts I've done it with so 150 00:06:30,500 --> 00:06:29,220 many people posters on sceptical form 151 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:30,510 and you know people have write me emails 152 00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:32,610 on all this stuff and it's always the 153 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:34,830 same script ha ha ha you believe that 154 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:37,110 crazy Caesars Messiah stuff that's been 155 00:06:42,650 --> 00:06:39,870 completely discredited and then time and 156 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:42,660 time again they just crumble there's all 157 00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:44,490 this bluster all this confidence and 158 00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:46,950 then when they're really pressed they 159 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:50,460 back down but nonetheless I'm always a 160 00:06:56,870 --> 00:06:53,730 little surprised when it happens as it 161 00:07:00,110 --> 00:06:56,880 did in this case because despite the 162 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:00,120 fact that Jay Dyer and I left the last 163 00:07:04,630 --> 00:07:02,340 interview on very good terms with all 164 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:04,640 these plans to do his follow-up debate 165 00:07:11,510 --> 00:07:08,940 Jay has not responded to my numerous 166 00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:11,520 requests for a follow-up interview and 167 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:13,830 after you hear this interview which was 168 00:07:19,340 --> 00:07:16,290 recorded when I thought that Jay was 169 00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:19,350 going to come back on I think you'll 170 00:07:26,390 --> 00:07:23,280 understand why he probably decided to 171 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:26,400 decline the invitation here's my 172 00:07:31,910 --> 00:07:29,430 interview with Joe at well so a couple 173 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:31,920 of weeks ago I was interviewing Jay Dyer 174 00:07:37,610 --> 00:07:35,250 of the very excellent Jay's analysis 175 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:37,620 website that Jay Dyer and we're talking 176 00:07:43,850 --> 00:07:40,530 about film analysis and culture analysis 177 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:43,860 in geopolitics all of which Jay does a 178 00:07:50,870 --> 00:07:47,550 really good job of but since I had dug 179 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:50,880 into Jays work beforehand I knew there 180 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:53,130 was something else that I wanted to talk 181 00:07:59,750 --> 00:07:56,490 to him about because Jay is an orthodox 182 00:08:01,550 --> 00:07:59,760 christian and somewhat of a biblical 183 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:01,560 scholar I mean that's part of his 184 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:03,180 training and that's part of what he 185 00:08:08,570 --> 00:08:06,450 brings to his website and he's open 186 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:08,580 about this in terms of how it informs 187 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:11,520 his worldview and I don't mean that in a 188 00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:14,610 derogatory way I mean Jays not like a 189 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:18,270 bible thumper who's trying to inject you 190 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:20,850 know scripture verses and every sentence 191 00:08:26,210 --> 00:08:24,120 and Jay's also a really sharp guy who I 192 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:26,220 have a lot of respect for in terms of 193 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:29,010 his work and his analysis he's on point 194 00:08:36,079 --> 00:08:33,110 on so many things but this issue of 195 00:08:38,689 --> 00:08:36,089 religion and in particular this 196 00:08:42,170 --> 00:08:38,699 Christian worldview and how it informs 197 00:08:44,179 --> 00:08:42,180 things is something that I just can't 198 00:08:46,939 --> 00:08:44,189 really get away from I think it's so 199 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:46,949 central to a lot of things were going 200 00:08:53,629 --> 00:08:50,730 through today but I also think that it's 201 00:08:57,790 --> 00:08:53,639 an example of what skeptical is so much 202 00:09:02,239 --> 00:08:57,800 about in terms of big-picture questions 203 00:09:04,429 --> 00:09:02,249 controversy intelligent debate so I had 204 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:04,439 this rather lengthy exchange with Jay 205 00:09:10,189 --> 00:09:07,350 got a little bit Bible geeky on it but 206 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:10,199 it was fun and I decided at the end of 207 00:09:17,629 --> 00:09:14,040 it that this dialogue would be a great 208 00:09:20,569 --> 00:09:17,639 way to kind of bounce me into somewhat 209 00:09:23,210 --> 00:09:20,579 of a threaded debate with a guy who I 210 00:09:25,309 --> 00:09:23,220 really really enjoy talking to and I've 211 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:25,319 referenced many times on this show and 212 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:29,430 that is Joe Atwell author of Caesars 213 00:09:36,739 --> 00:09:34,050 Messiah so I asked Joe if he'd come back 214 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:36,749 on and do this thing and I've been in 215 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:38,730 contact with Jay as well and I think 216 00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:39,930 we're gonna be able to make that happen 217 00:09:46,069 --> 00:09:43,620 but Joe has been patiently listening to 218 00:09:48,590 --> 00:09:46,079 that long-winded introduction to kind of 219 00:09:51,619 --> 00:09:48,600 set the table but he's with us right now 220 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:51,629 Joe welcome back to sceptic oh and 221 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:53,370 thanks so much for joining me 222 00:09:59,540 --> 00:09:55,730 my pleasure Alex thanks for having me on 223 00:10:01,910 --> 00:09:59,550 so as I was alluding to one of the 224 00:10:02,629 --> 00:10:01,920 things that really excites me is okay so 225 00:10:05,749 --> 00:10:02,639 you wrote this book 226 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:05,759 a while ago Ceaser's Messiah the Romans 227 00:10:11,059 --> 00:10:08,910 conspiracy to invent Jesus as the title 228 00:10:13,369 --> 00:10:11,069 of it you've written another book since 229 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:13,379 then Shakespeare's secret Messiah we 230 00:10:20,329 --> 00:10:15,050 should also mention that you blog 231 00:10:22,009 --> 00:10:20,339 regularly at post flave iana.org and you 232 00:10:24,259 --> 00:10:22,019 also have started a podcast that I'm 233 00:10:25,790 --> 00:10:24,269 enjoying I've just kind of dipped into 234 00:10:28,220 --> 00:10:25,800 it and I'm thinking more and more 235 00:10:31,569 --> 00:10:28,230 there's some great stuff there but 236 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:31,579 people I think sometimes get tired of me 237 00:10:37,549 --> 00:10:34,410 hounding on this caesars Messiah thing 238 00:10:40,699 --> 00:10:37,559 but one of the things I wanted to start 239 00:10:43,629 --> 00:10:40,709 with is maybe pulling at some of the 240 00:10:47,329 --> 00:10:43,639 threads that are kind of on the outside 241 00:10:49,550 --> 00:10:47,339 tangential to this directly Caesar 242 00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:49,560 messiahs debate 243 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:51,120 even as we were just chatting about a 244 00:10:59,390 --> 00:10:53,640 minute ago I think what it really gets 245 00:11:02,060 --> 00:10:59,400 to is how do we analyze the data how do 246 00:11:04,519 --> 00:11:02,070 we sift through it how do we analyze it 247 00:11:07,850 --> 00:11:04,529 especially when there's this kind of 248 00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,860 [\h__\h] storm of controversy which you have 249 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:10,320 been through and I think is awesome that 250 00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,290 you've you know withstood it so do you 251 00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:15,839 have any thoughts in general about how 252 00:11:21,470 --> 00:11:18,480 these these kind of highly charged 253 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:21,480 controversial debates are especially 254 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:25,170 relevant to our times right now well 255 00:11:33,230 --> 00:11:29,580 first you just personally they're fun to 256 00:11:36,050 --> 00:11:33,240 engage in and I like a lot of the 257 00:11:38,090 --> 00:11:36,060 debates I've done and I would have to 258 00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:38,100 guess it to be around 200 and I've done 259 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:40,200 quite a few with Christian scholars and 260 00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:44,850 as far as how to think about sort of the 261 00:11:49,610 --> 00:11:47,279 whole Caesars Messiah thesis you know it 262 00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:49,620 really isn't for me to tell people back 263 00:11:54,170 --> 00:11:51,720 to how to approach it but I would just 264 00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:54,180 note that I'm bringing sort of a 265 00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,190 different quality of evidence to my 266 00:12:00,740 --> 00:11:58,320 theory of how Christianity developed 267 00:12:04,060 --> 00:12:00,750 which is basically I just produced the 268 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:04,070 text I mean the whole Caesars Messiah 269 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:08,730 approach is just to lay the Gospels in 270 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:11,160 there in the sequence of events that 271 00:12:17,630 --> 00:12:14,370 Jesus goes through the story with the 272 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:17,640 events that are recorded by Josephus the 273 00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:20,250 wars of the war between the Roman Jews 274 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:22,680 and so it's just a different quality of 275 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:26,730 evidence you know the the fact is is 276 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:30,600 that you can just subtract me out of the 277 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:32,250 whole equation which a lot of people are 278 00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,690 doing now actually there's a lot of 279 00:12:37,730 --> 00:12:36,000 people that really they get the book and 280 00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:37,740 then they take it and they go off into 281 00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:39,900 study groups you know they just said 282 00:12:43,579 --> 00:12:41,880 well we don't really need to contact out 283 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:43,589 well we can just sit here and do it 284 00:12:50,660 --> 00:12:46,470 ourselves and and I think that's really 285 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:50,670 what I would recommend is you can just 286 00:12:57,340 --> 00:12:54,570 take the text and simply go through them 287 00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:57,350 and see for yourself that there is a 288 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:00,480 dependency see but the Joe let me let me 289 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:02,490 interject something because I 290 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:04,290 not sure I quite see it that way I think 291 00:13:11,780 --> 00:13:08,010 you bring a very important element to 292 00:13:15,019 --> 00:13:11,790 this and part of that is that you seem 293 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:15,029 to have been able to put this into a 294 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:18,540 context that few others have been able 295 00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:22,830 to really do and you know now I'm so 296 00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,649 glad that we have the term deep state to 297 00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:27,600 throw around as replacement to 298 00:13:33,079 --> 00:13:30,660 conspiracy theory because conspiracy 299 00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:33,089 theory has been totally co-opted by the 300 00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:35,279 people who invented it and it's done its 301 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:37,350 job but what we're really talking about 302 00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,850 and what you're talking about in the 303 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:40,560 book in the context that you bring to 304 00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:43,620 this is that maybe we need to look at 305 00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:47,040 this history askew maybe we need to look 306 00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:48,990 at it from of the standpoint of what 307 00:13:54,290 --> 00:13:52,470 motivations people have when with that I 308 00:13:56,690 --> 00:13:54,300 guess where I was going and I'd pull the 309 00:13:59,780 --> 00:13:56,700 lens back even a little bit further what 310 00:14:02,090 --> 00:13:59,790 I think is relevant to the discussion 311 00:14:04,910 --> 00:14:02,100 we're having right now is that when I 312 00:14:07,819 --> 00:14:04,920 talk to people about Joe at well and 313 00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:07,829 Cesar's Messiah the first thing I hear 314 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:09,300 when I mentioned your name the first 315 00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:11,510 thing is all this guy's been discredited 316 00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:14,550 did year at Bart Ehrman said a sophomore 317 00:14:20,110 --> 00:14:17,790 could rip his thesis apart with that 318 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:20,120 what I'm gonna do now is play for people 319 00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:22,730 the clip from my interview with Jay 320 00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:26,399 where he just says look you know this is 321 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:30,660 just ridiculous stuff so you can look at 322 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:32,490 Protestant scholars even that talk about 323 00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:34,770 how the Canon came into formation like 324 00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:37,380 ffs Bruce renowned New Testament scholar 325 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:40,020 for decades it's just completely 326 00:14:44,990 --> 00:14:41,940 contrary to like public scholarship 327 00:14:47,569 --> 00:14:45,000 about what happened in the first four or 328 00:14:50,030 --> 00:14:47,579 five centuries that brought the biblical 329 00:14:51,769 --> 00:14:50,040 Canon together and you can again you can 330 00:14:53,630 --> 00:14:51,779 read those two books just for example 331 00:14:56,350 --> 00:14:53,640 they just completely blow all this out 332 00:14:59,360 --> 00:14:56,360 of the water it's just it's nonsensical 333 00:15:03,079 --> 00:14:59,370 one of the ways that Cesar Messiah I 334 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:03,089 think is understood is as a complete 335 00:15:11,439 --> 00:15:06,750 review of everything about Christianity 336 00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:11,449 and that it was completely contrived 337 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:15,150 manipulation by the Romans now I don't 338 00:15:16,460 --> 00:15:15,900 buy it 339 00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:16,470 - the 340 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:19,350 extent but I remember distinctly early 341 00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:21,030 on one of the first times I talked to 342 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:23,040 you and I brought this up and I thought 343 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:25,110 your answer was so perfect and that I 344 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:27,360 said but Joe I mean do you really think 345 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:30,270 that the whole thing you know every 346 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:33,510 fiber of it was invented by the Romans 347 00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,450 and you said well I don't know I can 348 00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:39,120 only go by the evidence we have and the 349 00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:42,480 evidence we have shows that a pro Roman 350 00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:45,420 conspiracy is evident in the Bible and 351 00:15:52,690 --> 00:15:49,200 from there it's all speculation and I 352 00:15:56,420 --> 00:15:52,700 thought now it shifts the debate from 353 00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,430 whether there was a Roman conspiracy to 354 00:16:00,950 --> 00:15:58,800 what extent there was a Roman conspiracy 355 00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:00,960 and that I felt like you were open to 356 00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:04,260 debating but you had now shifted the 357 00:16:09,260 --> 00:16:06,900 landscape the table on which everything 358 00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:09,270 would be placed do you have any thoughts 359 00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:12,750 on that and whether or not the the whole 360 00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:15,000 idea of the entire invention of 361 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:17,550 everything about Christianity it's 362 00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:20,310 whether it's an all-or-nothing thing for 363 00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:24,240 you it's it's impossible to tell - to 364 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:27,840 what degree there was you know 365 00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:30,090 historical individual that the character 366 00:16:37,220 --> 00:16:33,630 was based upon or to what extent there 367 00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:37,230 was a quasi pacifistic version of 368 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:40,680 Messianic Judaism that was basically 369 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:43,890 used as a template I I would just 370 00:16:48,950 --> 00:16:45,930 compact my original statement which is 371 00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:48,960 it's impossible to tell I don't really 372 00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:51,600 feel it's something that I need to 373 00:16:59,690 --> 00:16:55,230 actually attempt to prove because my 374 00:17:03,500 --> 00:16:59,700 role is much smaller it is simply to 375 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:03,510 show that there is a dependency between 376 00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:05,970 the Gospels and Josephus that is just 377 00:17:10,340 --> 00:17:07,830 far far greater than it ever been 378 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,350 recognized before the questions you're 379 00:17:14,690 --> 00:17:12,720 bringing up have to do with you know 380 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:14,700 with religion and also with with 381 00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:17,190 ultimately with sort of the the template 382 00:17:21,620 --> 00:17:18,900 that was used to construct the story and 383 00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:21,630 and now honestly I wouldn't have any 384 00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:23,550 better thought than anyone else on any 385 00:17:26,929 --> 00:17:24,270 of that 386 00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:26,939 beautifully said and again this is like 387 00:17:32,899 --> 00:17:29,640 a skeptical moment for me 388 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:32,909 that seems to slip past most people and 389 00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:35,250 that's that you know there's this famous 390 00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:38,460 quote about truth passing through three 391 00:17:43,850 --> 00:17:40,950 stages first it's ridiculed second it's 392 00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:43,860 violently opposed and third its accept 393 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:46,049 as being self-evident and I'm reading 394 00:17:51,769 --> 00:17:49,529 your critics the scathing criticisms of 395 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:51,779 your work and I'm going this is exactly 396 00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:53,880 what's happening here I mean folks go to 397 00:17:59,060 --> 00:17:56,700 the Wikipedia entry for Caesars Messiah 398 00:18:01,870 --> 00:17:59,070 and you read these guys saying again as 399 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:01,880 Joe has meant you knew Richard carrier 400 00:18:07,370 --> 00:18:04,470 atheist biblical scholar highly 401 00:18:09,919 --> 00:18:07,380 credentialed you know Robert price very 402 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:09,929 well credential J throws himself in that 403 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:11,730 category take Bart internment all these 404 00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:13,080 people and they're all saying the same 405 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:16,500 thing at was full of crap oh but he's 406 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:19,110 right about the Bible being pro-roman 407 00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:22,710 and I just wanted to scream I mean this 408 00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:24,600 is to me this is what's relevant to 409 00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:29,070 today's lack of analysis lack of insight 410 00:18:37,070 --> 00:18:33,390 I mean what the heck do you mean the 411 00:18:39,889 --> 00:18:37,080 Bible is pro-roman that is the whole 412 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:39,899 story if the Bible is pro-roman 413 00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:43,230 then Christianity as we know it is not 414 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,720 what we think it is Christianity is not 415 00:18:49,970 --> 00:18:48,000 about the Bible being pro-roman right I 416 00:18:52,639 --> 00:18:49,980 mean you've already deconstructed that 417 00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:52,649 partially but I want you to particularly 418 00:18:59,000 --> 00:18:57,120 focus on how these guys can do this 419 00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,010 sleight of hand that I think is even 420 00:19:02,659 --> 00:19:00,960 deceiving themselves and that one hand 421 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:02,669 they're saying oh yeah that Theory's 422 00:19:06,590 --> 00:19:04,740 totally crap but yeah I guess he's right 423 00:19:08,389 --> 00:19:06,600 I guess the Bible is pro-roman how are 424 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:08,399 they maintaining those two things in 425 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:11,640 their head um you know I'd have to be a 426 00:19:18,460 --> 00:19:15,210 psychologist I think that once you've 427 00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:18,470 accept the fact that it's pro-roman 428 00:19:26,149 --> 00:19:23,760 basically then then you need to take 429 00:19:28,159 --> 00:19:26,159 step B and say well then the Romans 430 00:19:31,159 --> 00:19:28,169 probably had an influence in producing 431 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:31,169 it and now at that point then you have 432 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:33,570 these events which are oddly parallel 433 00:19:38,030 --> 00:19:35,850 between you know the Roman military 434 00:19:40,550 --> 00:19:38,040 campaign in Jesus's ministry 435 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:40,560 and frankly at that point how do you 436 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:42,930 even deny that one is related to the 437 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:46,650 other and so it's it's um once once you 438 00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:49,470 see you know it's it's sort of 439 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:52,200 interesting I'm like the the video of 440 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:54,030 the documentary has been seen by over 441 00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:56,670 two million people now and that's really 442 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:00,240 I think you know kind of how the 443 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:03,510 information is is spreading out into the 444 00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:05,310 you know because the population is it 445 00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:07,080 through the the video which is now 446 00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:08,670 basically been pirated and it's 447 00:20:11,570 --> 00:20:10,230 available on YouTube so if the everyone 448 00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:11,580 can see it without paying any money 449 00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:14,910 which is sad but I'm happy to have the 450 00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:17,520 information go out but the scholars um I 451 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:20,390 think you know actually what what really 452 00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:22,650 unfortunately is in back at back of most 453 00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:26,670 of the of the criticism is just that New 454 00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:29,070 Testament scholarship is a very very 455 00:20:35,630 --> 00:20:34,200 finite resource pool right it's what 456 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:35,640 you're saying is it's professional John 457 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,470 so these guys are trying to make their 458 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:39,840 living and here comes someone who 459 00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:41,010 doesn't come from their academic 460 00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:43,350 background and I'm getting all this 461 00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:46,320 publicity and in my book is selling out 462 00:20:51,410 --> 00:20:47,880 selling him like you know twenty to one 463 00:20:53,030 --> 00:20:51,420 or something and so they there was 464 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:53,040 resentment at that level but the other 465 00:20:56,780 --> 00:20:54,690 thing I think there was resentment about 466 00:20:59,810 --> 00:20:56,790 that again I'm gonna keep pulling it 467 00:21:03,080 --> 00:20:59,820 back to our current situation our 468 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:03,090 current climate is these guys had all 469 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:05,730 the data yeah at their fingertips right 470 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:07,350 so if you read them one of the things 471 00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,530 they say that's like kind of like a 472 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:12,720 Greek tragedy or something they go we 473 00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:14,730 already knew that though we already knew 474 00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:17,790 that Josephus and the parallels with 475 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:19,380 mark you know we knew that it's like 476 00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:21,660 yeah you knew it how come you weren't 477 00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:23,700 able to make the connection how come you 478 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:25,350 weren't able to take the next step and 479 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:28,250 see the implications of the fact that 480 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:31,440 Josephus is showing up in the Gospels do 481 00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:32,490 you know what I mean yeah you know I 482 00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:35,520 just want to say is that so now you know 483 00:21:42,020 --> 00:21:37,860 I pointed out that this character Joseph 484 00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,030 of Arimathea is an obvious he's 485 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:44,400 obviously dependent upon the character 486 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:46,590 and Josephus himself you know because 487 00:21:51,290 --> 00:21:49,050 the event where Joseph take Joseph's bar 488 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:51,300 Mathias takes the guy down from the 489 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:51,840 cross 490 00:21:55,370 --> 00:21:53,370 a group of three in this character 491 00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:55,380 survives it's obviously the basis for 492 00:22:00,019 --> 00:21:58,470 the story in the Gospels well now on the 493 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:00,029 internet there's just literally 494 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:02,970 thousands of people that are like going 495 00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:04,529 what the heck this looks very much like 496 00:22:08,539 --> 00:22:06,990 it's as parallel and there's all sorts 497 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:08,549 of now original scholarship that's 498 00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:12,510 coming out but it was actually something 499 00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:13,950 that was first presented in Caesars 500 00:22:19,490 --> 00:22:16,679 Messiah but it's so transparent it's so 501 00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:19,500 obvious so the question that's always 502 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:22,559 asked me about that is well how did 503 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:24,210 everyone miss it and how could you have 504 00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:25,770 seen it right how would you're able to 505 00:22:30,889 --> 00:22:28,380 see it and I and I always this is the 506 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:30,899 kind of the the power of the sequence 507 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:32,970 that they have presented for us you know 508 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:35,010 that we can follow in both stories I 509 00:22:39,139 --> 00:22:36,720 said well the reason I founded it 510 00:22:41,299 --> 00:22:39,149 because I knew were to look I knew it 511 00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:41,309 had to be between these two other 512 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:43,230 parallels in terms of the sequence so I 513 00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:45,450 actually was able to them you know I 514 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:46,679 wasn't going to go through you know 515 00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:48,690 millions of pages try to find this thing 516 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:49,919 I actually could just look in a couple 517 00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:53,250 hundred words of text and there it was 518 00:22:57,289 --> 00:22:55,590 let's just clarify for folks again this 519 00:23:01,370 --> 00:22:57,299 goes back to your idea of this 520 00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:01,380 side-by-side analysis of Josephus is 521 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:04,500 writing on the war of the Jews and the 522 00:23:08,419 --> 00:23:06,570 Gospels primarily Gospel of Mark right 523 00:23:10,399 --> 00:23:08,429 yeah if you break the stories into the 524 00:23:12,409 --> 00:23:10,409 temporal sequence because some of the 525 00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:12,419 text is in other places and you know you 526 00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:13,679 have to do there's a little bit of 527 00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:15,809 puzzle but not to a whole lot you can 528 00:23:21,019 --> 00:23:18,720 you can then just go straight down the 529 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:21,029 list of the events in Jesus's ministry 530 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:22,529 and then look and see if there's 531 00:23:27,139 --> 00:23:24,330 something over here and Josephus that is 532 00:23:30,049 --> 00:23:27,149 is parallel and you know some of them 533 00:23:32,659 --> 00:23:30,059 are kind of cognitive and obviously I'm 534 00:23:35,899 --> 00:23:32,669 exposed for criticism you know if you 535 00:23:39,169 --> 00:23:35,909 take the most abstract of the of the of 536 00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:39,179 the parallels but others are basically 537 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:41,039 the same historical event I mean the 538 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:43,770 destruction of the temple complex the 539 00:23:49,399 --> 00:23:46,730 destruction of the Galilean towns the 540 00:23:52,669 --> 00:23:49,409 the encircling of Jerusalem the 541 00:23:55,370 --> 00:23:52,679 abomination of desolation I mean the the 542 00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,380 the leaving of Galilee to go to 543 00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:57,440 Jerusalem I mean these are just 544 00:24:05,060 --> 00:24:01,440 historical events that are in Josephus 545 00:24:07,370 --> 00:24:05,070 is history they are also in the ministry 546 00:24:09,019 --> 00:24:07,380 Jesus and when you put them aside by 547 00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:09,029 side you can see that they're occurring 548 00:24:14,029 --> 00:24:11,340 in the same sequence so so these are 549 00:24:16,159 --> 00:24:14,039 kind of these historical events which 550 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:16,169 are obvious parallels and obviously 551 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:18,809 dependent just form the basis the 552 00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:20,970 structure for all of the other parallels 553 00:24:23,389 --> 00:24:22,230 and so you can pull when you plug 554 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:23,399 everything and it's really not a very 555 00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:25,740 difficult thing I I know it when people 556 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:28,200 you know first hear it that sounds like 557 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:29,850 it's complicated but actually once you 558 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:32,370 start you know reading C's from sight 559 00:24:37,159 --> 00:24:35,250 it's really not very hard and III 560 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:37,169 because I get so much feedback from 561 00:24:41,899 --> 00:24:39,330 readers I can tell you that that really 562 00:24:43,580 --> 00:24:41,909 what they left for us that what the 563 00:24:46,999 --> 00:24:43,590 Romans left for us in terms of making 564 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:47,009 sure that we would give them the legacy 565 00:24:52,299 --> 00:24:49,710 that they wanted the immortal legacy for 566 00:24:57,139 --> 00:24:52,309 having been so clever as to create the 567 00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:57,149 Roman Judaism that that we would get it 568 00:25:01,549 --> 00:24:59,039 right it's not it's not meant basically 569 00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:01,559 once you kind of know it's there to be 570 00:25:04,909 --> 00:25:03,240 hidden from people so it's well let's 571 00:25:07,899 --> 00:25:04,919 see that that's a little bit speculative 572 00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:07,909 because we don't know exactly how that 573 00:25:12,049 --> 00:25:10,500 plays out I take you back to your first 574 00:25:13,820 --> 00:25:12,059 point we don't know you don't know the 575 00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:13,830 extent to which Josephus thought it 576 00:25:19,129 --> 00:25:15,870 would play out this way or that way it 577 00:25:20,990 --> 00:25:19,139 doesn't you know it like extinguished 578 00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:21,000 the possibility for these historical 579 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:23,340 basis for any this it's just that's why 580 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:24,960 they would do something like this is 581 00:25:30,049 --> 00:25:26,610 their vein and they want legacy in the 582 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:30,059 future with that let me back up again 583 00:25:35,869 --> 00:25:33,090 because I want to talk about Josephus in 584 00:25:39,259 --> 00:25:35,879 some very basic historical terms that 585 00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,269 anyone can get I took a passage from our 586 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:42,000 old friends masters of the culture 587 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:45,090 shaping Wikipedia and they're right up 588 00:25:51,049 --> 00:25:48,720 on Josephus and you know for folks for 589 00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:51,059 this inside baseball stuff let me try 590 00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:53,940 and add a little bit of kind of reality 591 00:25:58,639 --> 00:25:56,190 check most people do not know who 592 00:26:01,519 --> 00:25:58,649 Josephus was and that's to be expected 593 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:01,529 you know and even you the people who do 594 00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:03,210 know it I found you know if you bring up 595 00:26:07,369 --> 00:26:05,039 the name Josephus a lot of times 596 00:26:10,249 --> 00:26:07,379 Christians who've delved into Christian 597 00:26:12,049 --> 00:26:10,259 apologetics know and they go oh yeah but 598 00:26:14,419 --> 00:26:12,059 the first thing they'll say is oh yeah 599 00:26:16,399 --> 00:26:14,429 he was a Roman historian which i think 600 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:16,409 is really interesting cuz that's right 601 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:18,880 part of how the message has been passed 602 00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:24,030 down so let's talk about Josephus 603 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:26,860 line-by-line if you will from what I 604 00:26:32,550 --> 00:26:30,100 pulled from Wikipedia fascinating stuff 605 00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:32,560 to me this is the like what's so cool so 606 00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:34,870 the first little tidbit so he's you know 607 00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:35,920 they're talking about the life of 608 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:37,680 Josephus and they pick up at this point 609 00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:40,210 Josephus travelled to negotiate with 610 00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:42,580 Emperor Nero for the release of 12 611 00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:45,460 Jewish priests so I should back up a 612 00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:48,700 little bit further Josephus is kind of a 613 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:51,640 big dude big heavy hitter dude he's a 614 00:26:57,780 --> 00:26:54,130 rabbis in the highest order of the 615 00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:57,790 Jewish culture or Jewish establishment 616 00:27:03,150 --> 00:27:00,880 in terms of both religiously militarily 617 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:03,160 governmental he's an employee's an elite 618 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:06,870 if you will and at some point he goes to 619 00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:10,870 Rome and I think this is kind of 620 00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:12,820 significant don't you I think it's a 621 00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:15,460 story of a kid being dazzled by the 622 00:27:22,670 --> 00:27:17,830 bright lights of the big city do you get 623 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:22,680 any sense of that well the we know about 624 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:26,770 Josephus from Josephus right right and 625 00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:29,170 no one else has ever written about him I 626 00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:32,260 would say he's just as a you know as a 627 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:34,300 component of history's among the most 628 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:37,650 important individuals that we have 629 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,810 because he really is the the whole 630 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:43,120 historical foundation for Christianity I 631 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:46,170 mean no one else wrote about this era 632 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:51,070 and he I am convinced he's a fictional 633 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:52,930 character I don't think such an 634 00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:54,970 individual could possibly have existed I 635 00:28:00,360 --> 00:27:58,000 think that I don't mention this in 636 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:00,370 Caesar's Messiah because I you know and 637 00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:03,070 have enough of a you know introduction 638 00:28:06,270 --> 00:28:04,660 of new information and and it's not 639 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:06,280 necessary for the theory that he'd be 640 00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:09,130 you know fictional but when you say 641 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:10,480 fictional let's be clear 642 00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:13,330 I mean it's someone who's inflating his 643 00:28:19,230 --> 00:28:16,660 own biography real you know actually no 644 00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:19,240 I think he is just tip to stern I don't 645 00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:20,230 think there's any part of him that's 646 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:22,480 real what what I suspect they did was is 647 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:24,910 they they wanted to create a an author 648 00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:27,970 of the history that was completely 649 00:28:32,730 --> 00:28:30,700 authoritative that couldn't be in any 650 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:32,740 way questioned in terms of his 651 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:36,040 ability to deliver the truth in terms of 652 00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:38,650 Judaism because this is what Josephus 653 00:28:44,430 --> 00:28:40,920 brings to history as he brings this 654 00:28:46,350 --> 00:28:44,440 basically the this very specific 655 00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:46,360 understanding of the Jewish prophecies 656 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:49,740 and how the Jews are being cursed 657 00:28:54,930 --> 00:28:52,770 because of their rebellion against Rome 658 00:28:58,730 --> 00:28:54,940 that's something that many people have 659 00:29:03,270 --> 00:28:58,740 seen that that he's actually basically 660 00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:03,280 describing the same curse that that 661 00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:06,070 Jesus does in terms of the end of the 662 00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:09,220 covenant between God and the Jews okay 663 00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:10,150 now hold on we're getting we're getting 664 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,830 a little bit ahead of the story but I 665 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:13,840 think we understand why you're going 666 00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:15,850 that way because you're introducing a 667 00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:18,520 very controversial alternative theory 668 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:22,350 and that is that Josephus himself that 669 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:25,150 historical figure is not a historical 670 00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:28,330 figure as an invention so what I want to 671 00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:30,640 do since that's gonna kind of require 672 00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:32,860 another brain I know it's too 673 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:35,320 complicated it's not necessarily too 674 00:29:41,490 --> 00:29:38,410 complicated and it deserves to be you 675 00:29:45,540 --> 00:29:41,500 know kind of pursued but what I want to 676 00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:45,550 do instead is is hold that and we can 677 00:29:50,610 --> 00:29:48,670 kind of keep that people should know 678 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:50,620 that the historical details about Joseph 679 00:29:54,299 --> 00:29:52,450 as well well we don't know if they are 680 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:54,309 historical as you're pointing out we 681 00:29:58,049 --> 00:29:56,290 don't know if there is they've been put 682 00:30:00,240 --> 00:29:58,059 into his historical books purportedly 683 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:00,250 you know yes as the Wars of the Jews 684 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:02,170 reports through Josephus about himself 685 00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:05,230 he he was actually um a member of all 686 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:08,620 three of the Jewish sects and this 687 00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:10,450 really makes him unusual he was in a 688 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:12,820 scene a sad you see in a Pharisee robbed 689 00:30:17,010 --> 00:30:15,070 completely unique as far as anyone can 690 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,020 tell in fact if you look yes roles the 691 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:19,600 idea of like leaving a particular sack 692 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:21,850 didn't seem like a you know something 693 00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:23,800 you could actually do physically because 694 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:26,140 you probably get killed but nevertheless 695 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:28,090 Josephus claims he had this background 696 00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:33,070 he he was also uh somehow an emissary to 697 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:35,200 Rome and you know mentioned the the 698 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:38,110 episode where he you know meets Nero's 699 00:30:44,430 --> 00:30:41,290 wife they give him presents he seems to 700 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:44,440 be you know familiar with court manners 701 00:30:48,830 --> 00:30:45,510 and you 702 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:48,840 in Rome now when the war breaks out in 703 00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:50,850 spite of this relationship he has to 704 00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:53,220 roam he has made the general of the 705 00:30:59,150 --> 00:30:57,000 military forces in Galilee right so here 706 00:31:01,340 --> 00:30:59,160 you have a priest and not just a priest 707 00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,350 remember he is from the family of 708 00:31:07,789 --> 00:31:03,600 Matthias which would be the royal family 709 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:07,799 that has Moni ins so he is he has a very 710 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:12,510 powerful sort of lineage of a details in 711 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:15,090 his life and pedigree that makes him 712 00:31:22,010 --> 00:31:19,049 just you know extraordinarily Jewish I 713 00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:22,020 mean he is he is just the quintessential 714 00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:25,260 you know example par excellence of 715 00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:27,750 Judaism at this point no no let me let 716 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:28,950 me just interject because now I'm 717 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:30,690 getting more as you're saying this I'm 718 00:31:33,980 --> 00:31:32,190 kind of I keep thinking about what 719 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:33,990 you're saying before about him being 720 00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:35,850 invented character but I want to leave 721 00:31:40,789 --> 00:31:37,980 that aside but I do want to highlight 722 00:31:44,530 --> 00:31:40,799 here back to my earlier point now folks 723 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:44,540 contrast this with what most Christians 724 00:31:48,169 --> 00:31:46,530 understand when you ask a Christian who 725 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:48,179 is Josephus they go he's a Roman 726 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:50,490 historian right so now what you're 727 00:31:57,140 --> 00:31:52,910 saying is no he is the quintessential 728 00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:57,150 Jewish elite right that's who he's at 729 00:32:02,960 --> 00:31:59,460 this point he has theological and and 730 00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:02,970 family and priestly backgrounds which 731 00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:06,059 make him absolutely authoritative as a 732 00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:09,840 Jew so that's what and that's why in my 733 00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:12,900 opinion why you know he was constructed 734 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:14,580 in this form because now when he 735 00:32:18,409 --> 00:32:16,650 delivers the blow when he when he in 736 00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:18,419 wars of the Jews when he says the 737 00:32:23,150 --> 00:32:20,520 covenant between God and Jude and and 738 00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:23,160 the Jews is broken and there is a new 739 00:32:28,220 --> 00:32:25,350 covenant between God and Roman that now 740 00:32:30,830 --> 00:32:28,230 what you're getting is is this the 741 00:32:33,140 --> 00:32:30,840 statement is from some entity some being 742 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:33,150 that is so authoritative that he just 743 00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:35,700 can't possibly be criticized so let's 744 00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:38,100 build up it just takes a minute let's 745 00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:40,260 build right up to that point because so 746 00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:42,500 the war breaks out he's appointed 747 00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:46,080 general defend Galilee and then what 748 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:49,679 happens well he's captured his forces 749 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:52,410 are captured and now is where the story 750 00:32:58,100 --> 00:32:54,960 really gets weird because he's captured 751 00:32:59,049 --> 00:32:58,110 by Vespasian and Titus and hold on 752 00:33:06,489 --> 00:32:59,059 because there's a great 753 00:33:10,029 --> 00:33:06,499 tear it before he's captured let's just 754 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:10,039 be clear this is his account of his his 755 00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:13,460 war record right so he's he's pushed 756 00:33:18,580 --> 00:33:16,190 into a cave with 40 of his compatriots 757 00:33:21,879 --> 00:33:18,590 and they're gonna and they basically 758 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:21,889 play a mathematical game to try to 759 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:23,690 determine who would commit suicide first 760 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:28,090 and and at the very end of it 761 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:31,490 Josephus is the last person there was 762 00:33:34,509 --> 00:33:32,690 someone else and they go you know what 763 00:33:39,999 --> 00:33:34,519 the heck let's not commit suicide 764 00:33:43,810 --> 00:33:40,009 and so they they are captured and and 765 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:43,820 now Josephus has a trance he goes into a 766 00:33:48,879 --> 00:33:47,090 religious trance and he comes out of it 767 00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:48,889 and they bring him to this body and he 768 00:33:54,009 --> 00:33:51,499 goes you know what first of all you're 769 00:33:55,690 --> 00:33:54,019 going to be Caesar you know you're they 770 00:33:58,299 --> 00:33:55,700 say they're gonna send him to Nero and 771 00:33:59,859 --> 00:33:58,309 he goes now Nero's dead you're going to 772 00:34:01,840 --> 00:33:59,869 be the Caesar of course at this point 773 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:01,850 this pausing is claiming that you know 774 00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:03,850 he's not really interested in the role 775 00:34:07,690 --> 00:34:06,320 which is a little suspicious but 776 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:07,700 nevertheless that's what the story says 777 00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:12,050 is that this Bosnian is surprised but 778 00:34:16,899 --> 00:34:13,790 then it turns out to be correct 779 00:34:18,990 --> 00:34:16,909 and so now they go we know Jesus Josie 780 00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:19,000 this guy looks like a prophet and 781 00:34:27,220 --> 00:34:24,139 Josephus then says by the way you know 782 00:34:28,990 --> 00:34:27,230 the the God's good favor which had been 783 00:34:31,629 --> 00:34:29,000 given to the Jews the Covenant that's 784 00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:31,639 described in the Torah that's gone and 785 00:34:38,290 --> 00:34:35,030 in fact the Covenant is now with you the 786 00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:38,300 significance of this Joe fully fully 787 00:34:44,589 --> 00:34:41,240 pull out the significance of this and 788 00:34:48,569 --> 00:34:44,599 what he's saying is a complete rewrite 789 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:48,579 of Jewish religion oh absolutely 790 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:51,530 Josephus is doing is is he's saying that 791 00:35:00,849 --> 00:34:56,450 all of the prophecies that were 792 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:00,859 basically looking to messiahs who were 793 00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:03,410 being the lineage of David that all of 794 00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:05,990 that theology all that prophecy that 795 00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:09,710 actually is now was all developed in 796 00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:11,460 fact to 797 00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:15,750 predict the Flavian Caesar rain now 798 00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:20,640 what's amazing is that this is basically 799 00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:23,190 exactly what is going on inside the 800 00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:26,390 Gospels where you have all of the the 801 00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:29,400 prophecies then are being funneled into 802 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:31,950 this character Jesus Christ who is 803 00:35:36,589 --> 00:35:33,170 pro-roman 804 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:36,599 the the thing that most confuses people 805 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:38,490 about the character of Jesus Christ is 806 00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:41,490 that he has a relationship with this guy 807 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:43,380 he calls the Son of Man who's gonna come 808 00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:45,690 in the future right he says the Son of 809 00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:47,190 Man is gonna come and you have all of 810 00:35:51,290 --> 00:35:49,950 this apocalyptic stuff happens so what 811 00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:51,300 what they're doing is is they're 812 00:35:57,170 --> 00:35:55,380 funneling the the theology using what's 813 00:36:01,820 --> 00:35:57,180 called typology they're funneling it 814 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:01,830 through Jesus and then into the Wars of 815 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:04,770 the Jews right so that now when all of 816 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:06,690 the prophecies that Jesus makes about 817 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:08,250 the future what's going to happen it's 818 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:12,050 all going to end up with the Caesars 819 00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:15,810 basically being the recipients of all of 820 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:19,920 the the Jewish Messianic prophecies and 821 00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:22,530 then and then Josephus at kind of the 822 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:25,470 dramatic conclusion of wars of the Jews 823 00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:28,320 he actually then writes that you know 824 00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:30,180 what amazing thing 825 00:36:34,359 --> 00:36:32,040 the Jews rebelled because they were 826 00:36:36,740 --> 00:36:34,369 looking to a messiah but you know what 827 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:36,750 actually the Messiah is the Flavian 828 00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:39,570 Caesar so now when you look at the 829 00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:41,400 character in the gospel you know that 830 00:36:47,089 --> 00:36:44,070 that is Jesus is looking forward to you 831 00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:47,099 would see that well you know there it is 832 00:36:53,300 --> 00:36:49,680 it's the Flavian Caesar there is the the 833 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:53,310 Christ that Josephus um was and Jesus 834 00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:56,250 we're both predicting now just to show 835 00:37:01,070 --> 00:36:58,200 how I just want to give an example of 836 00:37:02,329 --> 00:37:01,080 why we have to say it's like cognitive 837 00:37:04,849 --> 00:37:02,339 dissonance I hate to use the expression 838 00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:04,859 it's not not a nice thing dude to do but 839 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:07,470 I'll just say that okay so the 840 00:37:13,070 --> 00:37:10,530 relationship between Jesus and the war 841 00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:13,080 is artists is obviously artificial it's 842 00:37:16,970 --> 00:37:15,089 this hasn't really been given to the 843 00:37:18,620 --> 00:37:16,980 population but there's a very very 844 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:18,630 simple way people can look at this and 845 00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:20,730 understand it and that's just the dates 846 00:37:28,730 --> 00:37:24,180 of the of the terminations of the of the 847 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:28,740 I mean Jesus's life is his he becomes 848 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:31,530 the the Passover lamb of the New 849 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:34,770 Covenant right when he is set up as a 850 00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:37,170 Passover lamb and crucified and that's 851 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,110 on Passover 33 right you can determine 852 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:42,720 that date from details in the Gospel now 853 00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:45,690 in the original Verte the the first 854 00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:47,040 covenant you had the forty years of 855 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:49,680 wandering right from the Passover to the 856 00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:51,810 the date when the Israelites were given 857 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:54,900 the ownership of Israel forty years for 858 00:37:58,580 --> 00:37:55,590 the New Covenant 859 00:38:03,260 --> 00:37:58,590 well what happens forty years to the day 860 00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:03,270 from Jesus's the Passover lamb of the 861 00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:05,460 New Covenant his death well that's the 862 00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:07,350 date of the conclusion of the Jewish war 863 00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:10,560 when Rome is given the the ownership of 864 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:12,780 the promised land I mean this is 865 00:38:19,010 --> 00:38:15,810 obviously the the 40 years the precise 866 00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:19,020 you know cycle of the that's wandering 867 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:22,200 and the wilderness thing in the in the 868 00:38:27,350 --> 00:38:25,170 in the Old Testament being recreated 869 00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:27,360 here with the New Covenant you can only 870 00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:30,060 do this in hindsight and this is an 871 00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:34,260 example of you know Christians often 872 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:38,300 will take the position that it was real 873 00:38:45,410 --> 00:38:42,170 Mrak miraculous stuff for Jesus to 874 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:45,420 basically make these prophecies and in 875 00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:48,090 order to have that position they need to 876 00:38:52,850 --> 00:38:50,310 basically have the Gospels written 877 00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:52,860 before the war right because if they're 878 00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:55,880 written after the war then the non 879 00:39:02,390 --> 00:38:59,820 supernatural explanation is obvious 880 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:02,400 right so that's why they will they'll 881 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:06,090 try to date the the you know the writing 882 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:08,250 of this stuff to some of it anyway to 883 00:39:12,170 --> 00:39:10,410 the pre 70 so that they can at least 884 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:12,180 hold on to this idea of it being 885 00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:14,810 miraculous but the fact is you know 886 00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:18,180 parsimony simply demands that we accept 887 00:39:23,870 --> 00:39:20,910 the non supernatural explanation if it's 888 00:39:26,110 --> 00:39:23,880 you know coherent and in this case it's 889 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:26,120 just transparent I mean it's basically 890 00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:31,290 they constructed the religion as a you 891 00:39:37,470 --> 00:39:36,390 know as a way to both pacify basically 892 00:39:39,590 --> 00:39:37,480 the Messianic Jews 893 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:39,600 and far as our rebellion against Rome 894 00:39:44,910 --> 00:39:43,330 but also to set up the Roman 895 00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:44,920 Christianity which would be something 896 00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:47,440 and controlled by the by the by the by 897 00:39:53,940 --> 00:39:49,510 the Caesars okay with that let's 898 00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:53,950 introduce reintroduce some clips from my 899 00:39:58,920 --> 00:39:56,710 interview with Jay and I think that 900 00:40:02,550 --> 00:39:58,930 dovetails right into what you're saying 901 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:02,560 let me play these last two clips for 902 00:40:06,930 --> 00:40:05,290 everybody so what I want to make one 903 00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:06,940 more point though again this this is 904 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:09,670 very crucial to to Atwells things the 905 00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:11,650 preterist argument which is the idea 906 00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:14,280 that most of what you're seeing in 907 00:40:19,470 --> 00:40:16,960 Matthew 24 the Olivet discourse and Luke 908 00:40:21,450 --> 00:40:19,480 21 about the last days and even the book 909 00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:21,460 of the apocalypse which I referenced the 910 00:40:26,430 --> 00:40:24,100 days of vengeance by David Chilton those 911 00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:26,440 books don't stand alone a lot of what's 912 00:40:31,530 --> 00:40:29,230 in the apocalypse is out of texts from 913 00:40:34,260 --> 00:40:31,540 Isaiah and out of text from Ezekiel and 914 00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:34,270 they're they're out of text from Daniel 915 00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:36,880 so what I'm saying is that you it's not 916 00:40:41,340 --> 00:40:39,040 like you can build this thesis just on 917 00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,350 these New Testament chapters and say 918 00:40:46,349 --> 00:40:43,359 that well oh it coincides with Josephus 919 00:40:48,890 --> 00:40:46,359 because nobody will argue that Josephus 920 00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:48,900 was around the days of Daniel 921 00:40:58,970 --> 00:40:54,400 okay so re-explain your point and why 922 00:41:02,010 --> 00:40:58,980 that doesn't hold well you know he's 923 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:02,020 saying that because there is typology 924 00:41:07,099 --> 00:41:04,330 the author has introduced into the story 925 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:07,109 of Jesus that is from the Old Testament 926 00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:13,270 that this means that the the story of 927 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:17,380 Jesus basically is should be seen as 928 00:41:21,810 --> 00:41:19,170 having been written before the war and 929 00:41:23,970 --> 00:41:21,820 in other words he's able to maintain the 930 00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:23,980 supernatural explanation what are you 931 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:26,560 saying in simple terms says hey it's not 932 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:29,710 just Josephus right because before this 933 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:31,690 I hit him with the fact I said doesn't 934 00:41:36,270 --> 00:41:34,570 it again this goes back to what I think 935 00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:36,280 we're really talking about here is how 936 00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:39,550 to analyze and how people even really 937 00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,000 smart people and people who were 938 00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:44,560 scholarly and spent all their time now 939 00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:46,060 Jay doesn't but some of these other 940 00:41:51,150 --> 00:41:48,760 biblical scholars how they can miss the 941 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:51,160 boat and to me the way there 942 00:41:56,610 --> 00:41:53,770 seeing the boat is that it all boils 943 00:41:59,550 --> 00:41:56,620 down to like we're saying pro-roman if 944 00:42:02,130 --> 00:41:59,560 they are pro-roman oh if Josephus is in 945 00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:02,140 the picture at all then Daniel doesn't 946 00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:05,110 matter and the alt none of it matters 947 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:07,740 because we're in this kind of mess of 948 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:11,410 there's a soup of stuff going on and we 949 00:42:15,980 --> 00:42:14,170 can argue about how its put together and 950 00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,990 whether this person was inspired 951 00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:18,400 divinely or supernaturally or any of 952 00:42:23,130 --> 00:42:20,800 this at least part of it we have a very 953 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:23,140 natural explanation for a historical 954 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:25,290 explanation for a conspiratorial 955 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:28,530 explanation for and that is completely 956 00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:32,050 incompatible with what we're asked to 957 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:35,590 swallow hold with Christianity right I 958 00:42:42,750 --> 00:42:39,610 mean the the idea that because the 959 00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:42,760 author interjects Daniel we should then 960 00:42:50,330 --> 00:42:48,070 not recognize the pro Roman total menu 961 00:42:52,620 --> 00:42:50,340 that we're in with this literature is 962 00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:52,630 just not a strong interpretive framework 963 00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:56,310 I mean basically J is just maintaining 964 00:43:02,670 --> 00:42:59,920 the you know the principles of someone 965 00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:02,680 who believes in in Christianity this 966 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:04,960 said this is faith this is it's self 967 00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:06,910 referential right it's it's true because 968 00:43:11,490 --> 00:43:08,950 the Bible says it's true yeah I mean it 969 00:43:13,380 --> 00:43:11,500 just I mean it because and it's actually 970 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:13,390 fascinating comment I was thinking about 971 00:43:25,140 --> 00:43:17,770 it you know and I was playing is that J 972 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:25,150 is really having to find you know a way 973 00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:27,970 to keep the the supernatural intact in 974 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:30,580 his mind and and I don't mean to be you 975 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:32,410 know I'm just trying to be honest about 976 00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:34,450 what what I'm experiencing with with a 977 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:37,180 statement that is so oddball because 978 00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:41,130 frankly I could just sit here and create 979 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:44,230 literature all day long that would blend 980 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:47,530 a character from our current time and 981 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:50,530 end and the Old Testament to create 982 00:43:56,670 --> 00:43:52,690 typology in other words it's just such a 983 00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,680 trivial literary technique but to J it 984 00:44:00,600 --> 00:43:58,000 well people do it all the time with 985 00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,610 channeled material exactly of course I 986 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:02,800 mean I mean just just as an example I 987 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:04,810 mean you know someone has 988 00:44:09,850 --> 00:44:07,760 you know originally rights of Superman 989 00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:09,860 and then 100 years later there's still 990 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:13,550 people writing about it they can use you 991 00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:15,890 know literary techniques from you know 992 00:44:19,810 --> 00:44:18,440 current time they can blend them in but 993 00:44:22,090 --> 00:44:19,820 they can always reach back to the 994 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:22,100 original story and just slip them in as 995 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:25,330 as types you know as things that you can 996 00:44:33,010 --> 00:44:29,510 use in the in the present-day story but 997 00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:33,020 none of it matters if the original story 998 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:35,390 is fiction you can't ever no matter what 999 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:39,890 you do go back and try to basically make 1000 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:41,450 the original story something that it 1001 00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:45,290 wasn't and you know the story of Jesus 1002 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:47,510 is obviously just pro-roman 1003 00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:51,050 so that's you know that's that is really 1004 00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:52,730 the way that you want to be looking at 1005 00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:55,190 at this literature is like well how 1006 00:44:59,320 --> 00:44:58,100 would Rome have influenced this and then 1007 00:45:01,660 --> 00:44:59,330 when you look at when you think of that 1008 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:01,670 and and you know you think of the fact 1009 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:04,010 that the the Flavian Caesars claimed to 1010 00:45:08,170 --> 00:45:06,410 be the Jewish Messiah the literature 1011 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:08,180 doesn't really have any mysteries in my 1012 00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:09,410 opinion it's just very straightforward 1013 00:45:14,830 --> 00:45:13,070 very easy to understand okay clip three 1014 00:45:17,410 --> 00:45:14,840 and this is somewhat of the clincher in 1015 00:45:20,110 --> 00:45:17,420 terms of what we were talking about just 1016 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:20,120 a minute ago here goes even Josephus 1017 00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:23,210 says that the destruction of Jerusalem 1018 00:45:28,180 --> 00:45:24,860 seems in some way to kind of be a 1019 00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:28,190 covenant 'el upon Israel now he 1020 00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:29,900 obviously doesn't believe in Jesus he 1021 00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:30,800 doesn't think that it was for the 1022 00:45:34,270 --> 00:45:32,960 rejection on Messiah what I'm saying is 1023 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:34,280 that if you read the book of Deuteronomy 1024 00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,690 well he thinks Titus is the Messiah I 1025 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:39,440 think that's what you'll see fost 1026 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:42,050 believes I mean that's his whole if 1027 00:45:46,510 --> 00:45:43,850 that's his whole conversion right he's 1028 00:45:48,190 --> 00:45:46,520 in the cave and he tells everybody okay 1029 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:48,200 we all have to commit suicide and then 1030 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:50,090 he has incredible relevation goes hey 1031 00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:52,490 wait a minute we were all wrong our 1032 00:45:57,310 --> 00:45:55,100 whole Judaic tradition had it wrong the 1033 00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:57,320 Messiah is here it's Caesar Caesar is 1034 00:45:59,920 --> 00:45:57,920 the Messiah 1035 00:46:01,930 --> 00:45:59,930 let's go and that's what he that's what 1036 00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:01,940 he he lives and writes for the rest of 1037 00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:04,640 his life so I mean that's Josie again a 1038 00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:07,760 real quick way to dispel this is that 1039 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:10,840 there there are 300 years of persecution 1040 00:46:14,650 --> 00:46:13,130 of Christianity throughout the Roman 1041 00:46:16,569 --> 00:46:14,660 Empire 1042 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:16,579 so this kind of stunning that paused 1043 00:46:23,229 --> 00:46:19,970 there it is stunning J doesn't know this 1044 00:46:25,660 --> 00:46:23,239 right which is really actually amazing 1045 00:46:28,539 --> 00:46:25,670 to me because he is you know a very good 1046 00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:28,549 research individual but what Josephus 1047 00:46:33,819 --> 00:46:31,910 wrote which is I mean can only be seen 1048 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:33,829 as the climax of the entire story says 1049 00:46:42,940 --> 00:46:38,210 what what more than all else incited the 1050 00:46:46,329 --> 00:46:42,950 Jews was there Oracle who which was 1051 00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:46,339 found in in the Torah which stated that 1052 00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:48,470 a one from their country would become 1053 00:46:52,660 --> 00:46:50,150 the ruler of the world right the 1054 00:46:54,339 --> 00:46:52,670 Messianic prophecies and they they the 1055 00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:54,349 Jews thought that this meant someone 1056 00:47:01,329 --> 00:46:57,049 from their race and that they all went 1057 00:47:07,749 --> 00:47:01,339 crazy because of this but in fact it was 1058 00:47:10,180 --> 00:47:07,759 the the rain and dynasty of espacio and 1059 00:47:12,759 --> 00:47:10,190 then and then Joseph is that something 1060 00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:12,769 like you said that you know no one 1061 00:47:17,799 --> 00:47:15,710 connects it can escape their fate even 1062 00:47:19,749 --> 00:47:17,809 though you even though they can foresee 1063 00:47:21,759 --> 00:47:19,759 it in other words you know you're gonna 1064 00:47:24,009 --> 00:47:21,769 get crushed even if you're you know you 1065 00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:24,019 can you can see that the future is going 1066 00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:28,400 to be of that nature so that's the you 1067 00:47:33,370 --> 00:47:30,369 know that but my point is is that 1068 00:47:34,539 --> 00:47:33,380 Josephus said that that's what caused 1069 00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:34,549 them to rebel 1070 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:36,710 this is really what caused and rebelled 1071 00:47:41,559 --> 00:47:38,690 was an error in in scriptural 1072 00:47:46,089 --> 00:47:41,569 understanding so you can't really 1073 00:47:48,489 --> 00:47:46,099 understand the the whole sort of point 1074 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:48,499 of Josephus is work if you don't have 1075 00:47:52,749 --> 00:47:50,930 that as a as an understanding you need 1076 00:47:54,009 --> 00:47:52,759 to know this everyone everyone really 1077 00:47:56,469 --> 00:47:54,019 needs to think with us and they need to 1078 00:47:59,140 --> 00:47:56,479 think about this in light of you know 1079 00:48:01,150 --> 00:47:59,150 Jesus prediction about the Son of Man 1080 00:48:03,219 --> 00:48:01,160 who's gonna come during the war right 1081 00:48:05,019 --> 00:48:03,229 right to look at you need to look at 1082 00:48:06,940 --> 00:48:05,029 this statement and just honestly ask 1083 00:48:08,799 --> 00:48:06,950 yourself well could this be could the 1084 00:48:11,380 --> 00:48:08,809 Son of Man Jesus predicts be this 1085 00:48:13,420 --> 00:48:11,390 individual well folks I hate to say it 1086 00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:13,430 but it's just self-evident and then I 1087 00:48:16,829 --> 00:48:15,049 you know if you don't mind I would like 1088 00:48:19,319 --> 00:48:16,839 to comment on the idea that there was a 1089 00:48:24,099 --> 00:48:19,329 persecution of Christians for 300 years 1090 00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:24,109 this is just simply inaccurate the you 1091 00:48:32,130 --> 00:48:27,190 know you it's if this is a 1092 00:48:35,610 --> 00:48:32,140 basically a propaganda idea that that 1093 00:48:38,610 --> 00:48:35,620 later Christians brought into play but 1094 00:48:39,780 --> 00:48:38,620 the fact is is that you know at the end 1095 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:39,790 of the first century have what's called 1096 00:48:44,820 --> 00:48:41,650 the Christian Flavians which were the 1097 00:48:46,140 --> 00:48:44,830 imperial family you know members of the 1098 00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,150 Christian religion this is where you 1099 00:48:51,810 --> 00:48:48,640 have the the first catacombs of fleeted 1100 00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,820 omotola whose Titus's sister are as nice 1101 00:48:56,340 --> 00:48:54,160 and you have all of these people who are 1102 00:48:58,890 --> 00:48:56,350 who are Christians that are buried with 1103 00:49:01,320 --> 00:48:58,900 great honor and dignity inside of of 1104 00:49:06,180 --> 00:49:01,330 Rome this is the this is the end of the 1105 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:06,190 first entry and then you have Trajan and 1106 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:10,090 Trajan actually you know he they they 1107 00:49:14,820 --> 00:49:11,770 have a recording of what he said about 1108 00:49:16,350 --> 00:49:14,830 it and he said that that they are not to 1109 00:49:19,770 --> 00:49:16,360 be sought out there's an exchange 1110 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:19,780 between Trajan and Pliny the Younger and 1111 00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:21,490 and he says no he says you know don't 1112 00:49:26,850 --> 00:49:23,710 don't chase them don't seek out 1113 00:49:28,740 --> 00:49:26,860 Christians and you know if they're 1114 00:49:32,580 --> 00:49:28,750 guilty punish them but if not just leave 1115 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:32,590 them alone um there there is a confusion 1116 00:49:40,860 --> 00:49:36,730 about the first say you know eight years 1117 00:49:43,860 --> 00:49:40,870 of Christianity in terms of Rome's you 1118 00:49:46,830 --> 00:49:43,870 know so-called persecution of Christians 1119 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:46,840 because this was during the era of the 1120 00:49:53,250 --> 00:49:49,510 the rebellions of the Masonic movement 1121 00:49:55,830 --> 00:49:53,260 you had the first one in 66 there was an 1122 00:49:59,310 --> 00:49:55,840 absolute bloodbath around 115 and then 1123 00:49:59,820 --> 00:49:59,320 in 133 you had the final one with Bar 1124 00:50:01,730 --> 00:49:59,830 Kokhba 1125 00:50:03,660 --> 00:50:01,740 which was just another just absolute 1126 00:50:07,980 --> 00:50:03,670 genocide 'old bloodbath I mean these 1127 00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:07,990 were the most destructive Wars that Rome 1128 00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:10,240 ever encountered and so during that 1129 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:14,110 period if you were a messianic Christian 1130 00:50:18,330 --> 00:50:16,570 yeah it's easy to imagine you know there 1131 00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:18,340 would be a tradition about this I 1132 00:50:21,390 --> 00:50:19,840 explained some of this in Caesars and 1133 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:21,400 say I don't want to get you know inside 1134 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:23,890 baseball too far but just okay so that's 1135 00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:25,930 that's the first you know hundred and 1136 00:50:32,550 --> 00:50:29,830 fifty years then you have feverish I 1137 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:32,560 mean you know he gets actually sidious 1138 00:50:37,650 --> 00:50:34,930 records that he had a Christian barber 1139 00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:37,660 and and he wouldn't let people you know 1140 00:50:43,769 --> 00:50:40,150 cause any trouble to him 1141 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:43,779 there was a an empire-wide persecution 1142 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:48,730 in 302 that's but you see what's really 1143 00:50:54,210 --> 00:50:51,490 important is that that actually has some 1144 00:50:56,430 --> 00:50:54,220 historical documentation and what it was 1145 00:50:57,839 --> 00:50:56,440 deal CLE ssin and then 302 he says hey 1146 00:51:00,210 --> 00:50:57,849 we got to get rid of these Christians 1147 00:51:02,250 --> 00:51:00,220 and so what they did was is they kicked 1148 00:51:04,829 --> 00:51:02,260 them out of high places in the 1149 00:51:08,789 --> 00:51:04,839 government and for example they 1150 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:08,799 destroyed their the Christian Church in 1151 00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:13,450 nickim media which was right across from 1152 00:51:19,769 --> 00:51:16,569 the Imperial Palace literally across the 1153 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:19,779 street and it's gigantic it's 150 yards 1154 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:23,010 long so you see there was no general 1155 00:51:28,289 --> 00:51:25,650 persecution of the Christian as a 1156 00:51:31,319 --> 00:51:28,299 systematic thing it was just you know 1157 00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:31,329 sporadic and different emperors would 1158 00:51:36,029 --> 00:51:33,760 would go after him depending on whether 1159 00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:36,039 or not they wanted to return Rome to its 1160 00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:38,470 traditional religion and stuff so if you 1161 00:51:41,370 --> 00:51:40,089 and then I you know again I don't I 1162 00:51:45,059 --> 00:51:41,380 don't want to get too far in it but if 1163 00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:45,069 you just look at what's called the the 1164 00:51:50,250 --> 00:51:48,000 six authentic you know the most the most 1165 00:51:54,510 --> 00:51:50,260 authentic persecutions they're all 1166 00:51:56,190 --> 00:51:54,520 basically groups didn't like Christians 1167 00:51:58,440 --> 00:51:56,200 and then there would be some kind of 1168 00:52:00,720 --> 00:51:58,450 battle and then Christianity would 1169 00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:00,730 maintain that there was martyrdom and 1170 00:52:03,809 --> 00:52:01,900 this reflected Rome's 1171 00:52:05,970 --> 00:52:03,819 persecution of them but actually this 1172 00:52:08,579 --> 00:52:05,980 had nothing to do with Rome in general 1173 00:52:10,799 --> 00:52:08,589 it was just these individual you know 1174 00:52:13,620 --> 00:52:10,809 groups that would that would have these 1175 00:52:16,289 --> 00:52:13,630 battles with Christians you know I could 1176 00:52:18,690 --> 00:52:16,299 go on and on this is a something that 1177 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:18,700 I'm not sure we you know would be too 1178 00:52:22,620 --> 00:52:21,010 interesting for you know but I would 1179 00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:22,630 just reference that there's there's a 1180 00:52:26,099 --> 00:52:24,760 couple of really good books now Kandee a 1181 00:52:28,410 --> 00:52:26,109 moth wrote a book called the mists of 1182 00:52:30,180 --> 00:52:28,420 persecution and you know she estimates 1183 00:52:32,339 --> 00:52:30,190 that there was like maybe 10 to 12 years 1184 00:52:36,210 --> 00:52:32,349 in the first 300 years where Christians 1185 00:52:40,740 --> 00:52:36,220 were singled out Christians basically 1186 00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:40,750 would would take prosecution because if 1187 00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:42,910 you look at the the original martyrs 1188 00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:45,369 they would be prosecuted for individual 1189 00:52:49,230 --> 00:52:47,440 crimes and in Rome you know they didn't 1190 00:52:51,029 --> 00:52:49,240 want to maintain a prison population so 1191 00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:51,039 they would they would just execute you 1192 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:52,089 for just about anything 1193 00:52:56,610 --> 00:52:53,770 and so these the 1194 00:52:59,370 --> 00:52:56,620 we're not a general persecution which 1195 00:53:02,040 --> 00:52:59,380 you can see from you know the Flavian 1196 00:53:06,590 --> 00:53:02,050 catacombs right through to the gigantic 1197 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:06,600 church in nickim IDIA in 300 that 1198 00:53:13,380 --> 00:53:09,730 christianity was never you know other 1199 00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:13,390 than between 302 and 305 really singled 1200 00:53:19,470 --> 00:53:15,280 out for persecution by the emperor and 1201 00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:19,480 then of course after after the 305 issue 1202 00:53:24,090 --> 00:53:21,730 Constantine stepped in and it becomes a 1203 00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:24,100 state religion which was really more 1204 00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,070 reflective of the basically the you know 1205 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:29,440 the relationship between Rome and and 1206 00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:31,690 the religion so anyway the the idea that 1207 00:53:36,030 --> 00:53:33,310 there was some kind of 300 years of 1208 00:53:39,900 --> 00:53:36,040 persecution is simply inaccurate and and 1209 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:39,910 the the texts show that it never 1210 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:41,890 happened I'm really glad you went 1211 00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:42,850 through all that a lot of new 1212 00:53:49,890 --> 00:53:45,760 information for me but at the same time 1213 00:53:52,650 --> 00:53:49,900 it almost you know further demonstrates 1214 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:52,660 how easy it is to get knocked off of the 1215 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:55,810 thread line and into the weeds because 1216 00:53:58,980 --> 00:53:57,610 you know back to the big picture and 1217 00:54:01,260 --> 00:53:58,990 back the analysis thing we're talking 1218 00:54:03,690 --> 00:54:01,270 about here's what's going on right I hit 1219 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:03,700 Jay with the the bomb here that he 1220 00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:06,930 doesn't he's escaped him is that 1221 00:54:15,210 --> 00:54:12,240 Josephus is completely co-opted by the 1222 00:54:17,010 --> 00:54:15,220 Romans right and he doesn't have it that 1223 00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:17,020 this is central to the whole thing and 1224 00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:20,800 the diversion the retreat tactic and I'm 1225 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:22,150 not saying it's like conscious or 1226 00:54:25,140 --> 00:54:23,890 diabolical or anything like that it's 1227 00:54:26,550 --> 00:54:25,150 what we all do it's a cognitive 1228 00:54:28,530 --> 00:54:26,560 dissonance thing that you talk about 1229 00:54:31,860 --> 00:54:28,540 it's like well wait a minute my world is 1230 00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:31,870 spinning so he switched he tried to he 1231 00:54:35,820 --> 00:54:33,910 tried to like deflect he said he said 1232 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:35,830 well I can't really go further with your 1233 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:39,010 your point it leads to a kind of chaos 1234 00:54:43,410 --> 00:54:40,930 so I'm just going to go to my other my 1235 00:54:45,630 --> 00:54:43,420 fallback which is the persecution angle 1236 00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:45,640 and this is what's happening over and 1237 00:54:49,530 --> 00:54:46,990 over again in the kind of debates that 1238 00:54:51,210 --> 00:54:49,540 were all seem to be today we should redo 1239 00:54:53,550 --> 00:54:51,220 that because I don't want to like blow 1240 00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:53,560 the point no no no no no I think we're I 1241 00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:54,880 think we're there I think it all has to 1242 00:54:59,900 --> 00:54:57,010 be in the soup you know because that's 1243 00:55:02,820 --> 00:54:59,910 what happens when you have complex 1244 00:55:04,110 --> 00:55:02,830 controversial debates with intelligent 1245 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:04,120 people because like we're both saying 1246 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:06,770 Jay is a sharp guy Jay's not a 1247 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:08,930 me and J can stay we'll see what J says 1248 00:55:13,810 --> 00:55:11,090 in responses right because he will have 1249 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:13,820 a response so this is what makes it hard 1250 00:55:19,810 --> 00:55:16,850 it's not like we're beating up on the 1251 00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:19,820 town idiot here this is an intelligent 1252 00:55:23,980 --> 00:55:21,830 debate with people who've thought about 1253 00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:23,990 it deeply are gonna reference a lot of 1254 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:26,240 sources but you know I'll go back we'll 1255 00:55:30,940 --> 00:55:28,970 pick up back on Wikipedia here and I 1256 00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:30,950 hate Wikipedia for a lot of reasons but 1257 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:33,200 you know this is again back to the 1258 00:55:38,410 --> 00:55:36,530 biography of Josephus and I had to come 1259 00:55:40,900 --> 00:55:38,420 to this kind of closing point on it you 1260 00:55:43,420 --> 00:55:40,910 know cuz the this biography goes on and 1261 00:55:45,820 --> 00:55:43,430 it's talking about Josephus and he goes 1262 00:55:48,010 --> 00:55:45,830 to Rome and he marries and that doesn't 1263 00:55:50,740 --> 00:55:48,020 work out and he remarries and he has a 1264 00:55:54,220 --> 00:55:50,750 couple of kids and he gets a pension and 1265 00:55:55,780 --> 00:55:54,230 you know historians look at him and in a 1266 00:55:58,420 --> 00:55:55,790 way that you know why did he commit 1267 00:56:00,640 --> 00:55:58,430 suicide and all this again you know if 1268 00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:00,650 you take your alternative thing that 1269 00:56:06,580 --> 00:56:02,870 he's completely invented or if you just 1270 00:56:08,590 --> 00:56:06,590 take the situation as it unfolds in the 1271 00:56:11,410 --> 00:56:08,600 history that he taught ELLs they are 1272 00:56:13,330 --> 00:56:11,420 completely missing the point about who 1273 00:56:16,180 --> 00:56:13,340 Josephus was and they're talking about 1274 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:16,190 him in this other way that is completely 1275 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:18,410 yes fascinating isn't it yeah that's 1276 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:21,770 right they they they don't look at these 1277 00:56:29,620 --> 00:56:25,810 bizarre attributes of his personality as 1278 00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:29,630 as having any relation at all to their 1279 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:31,910 belief in this the history we've been 1280 00:56:38,410 --> 00:56:34,610 given I mean it really it goes to kind 1281 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:38,420 of the the way that people address nine 1282 00:56:46,030 --> 00:56:42,770 hundred you know it's it's that just the 1283 00:56:48,190 --> 00:56:46,040 socialization it is so powerful we don't 1284 00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:48,200 see it going on we don't understand it 1285 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:50,720 but it's there and it just shapes how we 1286 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:53,210 see the world and the old the Oleg arcs 1287 00:57:00,250 --> 00:56:55,610 know this you see they have basically 1288 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:00,260 broken the code in terms of how the 1289 00:57:07,410 --> 00:57:04,010 human mind operates and so they can you 1290 00:57:09,970 --> 00:57:07,420 know they create stories and you know 1291 00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:09,980 realities that are that are to their 1292 00:57:14,740 --> 00:57:13,040 benefit and yet we can't see the fact 1293 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:14,750 that they're fake because we've been 1294 00:57:19,450 --> 00:57:17,510 socialized we just believe the you know 1295 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:19,460 the version of history we're given and 1296 00:57:24,460 --> 00:57:20,810 so Bible scholar 1297 00:57:27,250 --> 00:57:24,470 end up not looking at Josephus in in the 1298 00:57:29,650 --> 00:57:27,260 right way in the way that well let's 1299 00:57:32,170 --> 00:57:29,660 look at how he could be fitting into the 1300 00:57:35,710 --> 00:57:32,180 whole pro-roman perspective we see in 1301 00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:35,720 the Gospels and like 9/11 or like your 1302 00:57:39,010 --> 00:57:37,670 piece on Gloria Steinem which we're 1303 00:57:40,300 --> 00:57:39,020 probably not going to be able to get 1304 00:57:40,990 --> 00:57:40,310 into in this show because we're running 1305 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:41,000 out of time 1306 00:57:48,010 --> 00:57:44,810 it's the trick of the culture shapers to 1307 00:57:50,770 --> 00:57:48,020 know that eventually the pieces of the 1308 00:57:53,710 --> 00:57:50,780 jigsaw puzzle will be turned over and 1309 00:57:56,350 --> 00:57:53,720 people will have the pieces so then the 1310 00:57:58,330 --> 00:57:56,360 goal is as you're just stating is to 1311 00:58:00,340 --> 00:57:58,340 keep them from being able to put them 1312 00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:00,350 together in any kind of meaningful way 1313 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:04,790 so Josephus is revealed but let's keep 1314 00:58:08,620 --> 00:58:06,770 everyone spinning their wheels from 1315 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:08,630 really putting it together in a 1316 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:10,610 meaningful way we have a lot of the 1317 00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:13,010 pieces of the 9/11 puzzle let's just 1318 00:58:18,310 --> 00:58:15,950 keep the confusion level going so that 1319 00:58:20,860 --> 00:58:18,320 no one really asks the right questions 1320 00:58:23,260 --> 00:58:20,870 you know the just to touch on the Gloria 1321 00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:23,270 Steinem piece of course Gloria Steinem 1322 00:58:29,260 --> 00:58:26,480 has been outed as being a CIA operative 1323 00:58:33,580 --> 00:58:29,270 and the narrative that was played out in 1324 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:33,590 the media was gee why she says that that 1325 00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:35,570 was good for feminism was it good for 1326 00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:37,760 feminism was it bad for feminism and 1327 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:39,680 let's get into this big debate and what 1328 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:42,290 I liked about you your analysis you step 1329 00:58:48,250 --> 00:58:43,850 back and said wait a minute 1330 00:58:51,130 --> 00:58:48,260 what the heck is this CIA doing trying 1331 00:58:53,860 --> 00:58:51,140 to shape our culture by having this 1332 00:58:56,590 --> 00:58:53,870 lifelong relationship with someone in 1333 00:58:57,880 --> 00:58:56,600 feminism and if that's and it obviously 1334 00:59:01,090 --> 00:58:57,890 doesn't end there 1335 00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:01,100 what game is at hand to what extent are 1336 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:03,440 they trying to shape and manipulate 1337 00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:05,090 culture if they're doing it in this way 1338 00:59:09,730 --> 00:59:07,760 then in what other ways are we doing it 1339 00:59:11,170 --> 00:59:09,740 so in that way Gloria Steinem becomes 1340 00:59:13,210 --> 00:59:11,180 somewhat irrelevant 1341 00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:13,220 other than pinning down the the data 1342 00:59:18,370 --> 00:59:15,530 points the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle 1343 00:59:20,170 --> 00:59:18,380 that say yes she did it not just when 1344 00:59:22,690 --> 00:59:20,180 she was starting the movement but when 1345 00:59:25,420 --> 00:59:22,700 she was with MS magazine and she's doing 1346 00:59:28,450 --> 00:59:25,430 it today with her comments about Syria 1347 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:28,460 and her very slanted kind of you know 1348 00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:32,090 look past these kind of atrocities on 1349 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:34,670 women and focus on these ones to advance 1350 00:59:40,060 --> 00:59:37,250 legenda I mean maybe you want to comment 1351 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:40,070 in general about some of that stuff well 1352 00:59:44,110 --> 00:59:41,690 I'm just you know would point out you're 1353 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:44,120 right and and it was very well said I 1354 00:59:50,890 --> 00:59:46,490 mean once you understand that she is a 1355 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:50,900 CIA agent and that she lied about being 1356 00:59:59,080 --> 00:59:53,450 an agent she lied about doing 1357 01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:59,090 intelligent work for the agency she lied 1358 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:01,040 about the length of time she was 1359 01:00:06,370 --> 01:00:02,930 involved with the independent research 1360 01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,380 service which was a CIA cutout then you 1361 01:00:11,470 --> 01:00:08,240 can see that the fact that everyone 1362 01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:11,480 around her and promoting her funding you 1363 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:14,510 know MS magazine is involved with the 1364 01:00:19,330 --> 01:00:16,730 CIA then you can see that the CIA is 1365 01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:19,340 mucking around inside our culture that 1366 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:22,510 she was a CIA version of feminism and so 1367 01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:26,330 the question is is what is the CIA's 1368 01:00:33,070 --> 01:00:28,640 role in our world 1369 01:00:36,580 --> 01:00:33,080 well what once you basically come to the 1370 01:00:38,820 --> 01:00:36,590 position that you know the government is 1371 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:38,830 involved in the production of culture 1372 01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:42,290 now you know you can't really trust 1373 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:45,200 basically anything in the media and what 1374 01:00:52,150 --> 01:00:49,130 we need to do is to set up our own media 1375 01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:52,160 our own method of gaining and vetting 1376 01:00:56,830 --> 01:00:54,130 facts and information of looking at 1377 01:00:59,740 --> 01:00:56,840 terrorist events looking at the things 1378 01:01:03,220 --> 01:00:59,750 that they use to socialize us to shape 1379 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:03,230 us and to do independent analysis which 1380 01:01:08,020 --> 01:01:06,410 you know is why for one reason people 1381 01:01:11,050 --> 01:01:08,030 should support you so much because you 1382 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:11,060 really are kind of the cutting edge as 1383 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:14,210 far as the considering of ideas and and 1384 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:17,210 presenting them to the public so well 1385 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:18,890 that's nice of you to say but before we 1386 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:20,690 go too far down that path what I'd like 1387 01:01:25,690 --> 01:01:23,330 to do is bring it back to Cesar's 1388 01:01:29,260 --> 01:01:25,700 Messiah because I think the parallels 1389 01:01:31,630 --> 01:01:29,270 are inescapable and just so profound 1390 01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:31,640 because in the same way 1391 01:01:36,820 --> 01:01:34,250 it's the pro-roman thing Joe right it's 1392 01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:36,830 back to saying okay but if we establish 1393 01:01:43,420 --> 01:01:40,160 that there is this pro-roman 1394 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:43,430 aspect to the Bible then as you said an 1395 01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:46,890 hour ago then it becomes a question of 1396 01:01:50,990 --> 01:01:49,260 the heck are the Romans doing trying to 1397 01:01:53,089 --> 01:01:51,000 influence the process so the same thing 1398 01:01:55,069 --> 01:01:53,099 what the heck is the CIA do what is the 1399 01:01:56,690 --> 01:01:55,079 extent to which they're trying to we 1400 01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:56,700 know now that they're trying to shape 1401 01:01:59,599 --> 01:01:58,410 culture to what extent are they're doing 1402 01:02:01,400 --> 01:01:59,609 that why are they doing that when are 1403 01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:01,410 they doing it what should we believe in 1404 01:02:05,630 --> 01:02:02,910 not believe and that's what I think 1405 01:02:08,839 --> 01:02:05,640 you're doing in Cesar's Messiah and the 1406 01:02:13,099 --> 01:02:08,849 reason I think that escapes so many is 1407 01:02:17,230 --> 01:02:13,109 they're just unwilling or unable to open 1408 01:02:19,339 --> 01:02:17,240 themselves up to this broader deep state 1409 01:02:21,970 --> 01:02:19,349 understanding of how the world works 1410 01:02:24,799 --> 01:02:21,980 they want to stay in really kind of this 1411 01:02:27,289 --> 01:02:24,809 juvenile kind of make-believe world that 1412 01:02:30,140 --> 01:02:27,299 you know people don't really do all 1413 01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:30,150 sorts of neat mean nasty things to 1414 01:02:36,559 --> 01:02:33,240 advance their own agenda right that's 1415 01:02:39,710 --> 01:02:36,569 exactly right that's one of the hard 1416 01:02:42,500 --> 01:02:39,720 lessons that comes from Caesars Messiah 1417 01:02:44,839 --> 01:02:42,510 and I think it is part of why some 1418 01:02:47,450 --> 01:02:44,849 scholars sort of rejected out of hand is 1419 01:02:50,359 --> 01:02:47,460 because it leads directly to a different 1420 01:02:54,529 --> 01:02:50,369 kind of responsibility of the citizen 1421 01:02:58,460 --> 01:02:54,539 I mean if Christianity was a tool of the 1422 01:03:01,630 --> 01:02:58,470 oligarchs it yep that 2,000 years of 1423 01:03:04,999 --> 01:03:01,640 basically mind control was effective and 1424 01:03:07,849 --> 01:03:05,009 so now when you see you know things like 1425 01:03:11,569 --> 01:03:07,859 a Course in Miracles which is creating 1426 01:03:16,009 --> 01:03:11,579 this neo Christianity coming from a see 1427 01:03:20,329 --> 01:03:16,019 a project called MKULTRA you know you 1428 01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:20,339 you have to be more skeptical and you 1429 01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:23,250 have to just just basically take that 1430 01:03:31,789 --> 01:03:29,039 position intellectually of there is you 1431 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:31,799 know influenced by sophisticated 1432 01:03:41,089 --> 01:03:35,930 technical people that is creating a 1433 01:03:44,660 --> 01:03:41,099 basically a matrix of illusion that is 1434 01:03:47,089 --> 01:03:44,670 the world I know essentially so I have 1435 01:03:49,279 --> 01:03:47,099 to you know develop new analytic skills 1436 01:03:51,620 --> 01:03:49,289 to be able to get to the truth and it's 1437 01:03:54,079 --> 01:03:51,630 really critical that people do this 1438 01:03:57,230 --> 01:03:54,089 because you know the oleg arcs they 1439 01:04:00,590 --> 01:03:57,240 aren't playing for you know just trying 1440 01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:00,600 to you know basically reduce 1441 01:04:06,110 --> 01:04:02,160 the middle-class I mean these things 1442 01:04:08,900 --> 01:04:06,120 these these these concerns are of 1443 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:08,910 genocide of dramatic population 1444 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:11,370 reduction we're really raps know more 1445 01:04:15,950 --> 01:04:14,010 about the group that controls our 1446 01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:15,960 government perhaps and I don't I don't 1447 01:04:19,820 --> 01:04:17,910 want to cut you off there but I want to 1448 01:04:23,030 --> 01:04:19,830 make one point sure because I think it's 1449 01:04:26,210 --> 01:04:23,040 an area where I think we are able to 1450 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:26,220 kind of synergize and synthesize some of 1451 01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:28,050 our thinking is that you have a business 1452 01:04:33,410 --> 01:04:30,930 background and I do too and you combine 1453 01:04:35,330 --> 01:04:33,420 that with more of a scholarly and you 1454 01:04:37,700 --> 01:04:35,340 know you read Greek and let and all that 1455 01:04:41,090 --> 01:04:37,710 stuff and I don't but my background it's 1456 01:04:44,060 --> 01:04:41,100 more IT but I'll tell you what anyone 1457 01:04:46,940 --> 01:04:44,070 who's been in business sees this in a 1458 01:04:49,730 --> 01:04:46,950 not necessarily quite so conspiratorial 1459 01:04:52,130 --> 01:04:49,740 thing it's just like hey man that's how 1460 01:04:55,570 --> 01:04:52,140 frickin [\h__\h] gets done are you kidding 1461 01:04:58,880 --> 01:04:55,580 me influencing corruption buy-off 1462 01:05:02,240 --> 01:04:58,890 manipulation that's how stuff gets done 1463 01:05:04,490 --> 01:05:02,250 grow up so did the Romans know how to 1464 01:05:06,550 --> 01:05:04,500 make stuff happen 2,000 years ago 1465 01:05:08,990 --> 01:05:06,560 are they placing their bets here that 1466 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:09,000 Christianity this little project might 1467 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:11,010 work out or they play it at the same 1468 01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:12,690 time or they're placing their bets over 1469 01:05:16,850 --> 01:05:15,090 here that this might work out yeah 1470 01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:16,860 that's how they're doing it are they 1471 01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:19,680 also mixing in maybe some kind of belief 1472 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:21,930 in the supernatural because that's the 1473 01:05:25,550 --> 01:05:23,130 other thing we haven't even talked about 1474 01:05:30,020 --> 01:05:25,560 it but when the atheists approach this 1475 01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:30,030 whole topic of Caesars Messiah and the 1476 01:05:36,110 --> 01:05:32,490 creation of Christianity they take a 1477 01:05:38,180 --> 01:05:36,120 very cynical view of the supernatural 1478 01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:38,190 that is completely at odds from 1479 01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,200 everything we can tell about history so 1480 01:05:45,260 --> 01:05:42,720 the the Romans it seemed were able to 1481 01:05:47,060 --> 01:05:45,270 balance these two they did believe in 1482 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:47,070 the supernatural but they also believed 1483 01:05:51,620 --> 01:05:48,570 that hey this is how you get things done 1484 01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:51,630 this how you dominate a foreign nation 1485 01:05:55,580 --> 01:05:53,490 you go into your co-op the religion 1486 01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:55,590 religion you take them over you've 1487 01:05:59,930 --> 01:05:57,180 bait-and-switch you do all these dirty 1488 01:06:02,090 --> 01:05:59,940 things and like a lot of religious 1489 01:06:05,660 --> 01:06:02,100 people we see today they are still able 1490 01:06:07,970 --> 01:06:05,670 to in some twisted way reconcile that 1491 01:06:10,700 --> 01:06:07,980 with some very strange supernatural 1492 01:06:13,250 --> 01:06:10,710 beliefs we have as well so maybe as a 1493 01:06:14,329 --> 01:06:13,260 final point I asked do you have any 1494 01:06:17,539 --> 01:06:14,339 thoughts on 1495 01:06:20,749 --> 01:06:17,549 maybe the oversimplification that I see 1496 01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:20,759 is done by a lot of atheists and really 1497 01:06:27,380 --> 01:06:24,089 understanding the supernatural beliefs 1498 01:06:31,099 --> 01:06:27,390 that the Romans did have well you know 1499 01:06:33,859 --> 01:06:31,109 the Atheist community has a kind of 1500 01:06:38,269 --> 01:06:33,869 arrogance which I think makes it 1501 01:06:41,949 --> 01:06:38,279 vulnerable they aren't always basically 1502 01:06:44,809 --> 01:06:41,959 sort of intuitive as to as to how 1503 01:06:47,179 --> 01:06:44,819 theology blends in with power you know 1504 01:06:50,959 --> 01:06:47,189 you look at for example Aleister Crowley 1505 01:06:53,150 --> 01:06:50,969 and the connections he has into all of 1506 01:06:54,709 --> 01:06:53,160 the different political systems you know 1507 01:06:58,059 --> 01:06:54,719 Britain in the United States and 1508 01:07:00,589 --> 01:06:58,069 intelligence systems right yeah he was a 1509 01:07:05,709 --> 01:07:00,599 mi6 agent you know as well as being a 1510 01:07:11,959 --> 01:07:05,719 kind of a Luciferian and I think that 1511 01:07:15,319 --> 01:07:11,969 what I see is that atheists can't you 1512 01:07:17,660 --> 01:07:15,329 know in general grasp that that there 1513 01:07:21,289 --> 01:07:17,670 might actually be a whole theological 1514 01:07:24,620 --> 01:07:21,299 structure that's basically within the 1515 01:07:26,779 --> 01:07:24,630 secret society that you know comes to us 1516 01:07:30,349 --> 01:07:26,789 through history is that they they just 1517 01:07:34,849 --> 01:07:30,359 wouldn't share with the common person 1518 01:07:38,239 --> 01:07:34,859 anything that would be useful basically 1519 01:07:41,059 --> 01:07:38,249 two things one let's substitute theology 1520 01:07:42,739 --> 01:07:41,069 for a reality to these extended 1521 01:07:45,140 --> 01:07:42,749 consciousness realms where some of this 1522 01:07:47,569 --> 01:07:45,150 stuff is going on so I would say atheist 1523 01:07:49,609 --> 01:07:47,579 cannot contemplate that as part of their 1524 01:07:52,099 --> 01:07:49,619 worldview whether they would completely 1525 01:07:54,079 --> 01:07:52,109 accept it or reject it it's not even on 1526 01:07:56,359 --> 01:07:54,089 the table and when you have that kind of 1527 01:07:58,429 --> 01:07:56,369 blind spot you're crippled and you're 1528 01:08:01,489 --> 01:07:58,439 crippled from what number two is what I 1529 01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:01,499 think is at play is atheists are part of 1530 01:08:06,739 --> 01:08:04,079 the SIA right because if there is this 1531 01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:06,749 theological kind of occulted 1532 01:08:14,839 --> 01:08:10,529 underpinning to a certain group of these 1533 01:08:19,129 --> 01:08:14,849 controllers shapers then what better 1534 01:08:21,019 --> 01:08:19,139 means to manipulate to subterfuge is to 1535 01:08:23,930 --> 01:08:21,029 kind of introduce this group over here 1536 01:08:27,539 --> 01:08:23,940 that's completely spotting this you know 1537 01:08:29,490 --> 01:08:27,549 a useful idiot atheistic nonsense 1538 01:08:32,189 --> 01:08:29,500 that you can just kind of point to over 1539 01:08:34,260 --> 01:08:32,199 there and use as part of your plan as 1540 01:08:36,419 --> 01:08:34,270 well so even that doesn't have to be 1541 01:08:39,599 --> 01:08:36,429 totally true it can just be a 1542 01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:39,609 possibility that has a lot of usefulness 1543 01:08:43,620 --> 01:08:42,489 or explains a lot before of course I 1544 01:08:48,299 --> 01:08:43,630 mean it 1545 01:08:51,660 --> 01:08:48,309 you know the to maintain power you you 1546 01:08:54,089 --> 01:08:51,670 have to be basically changing your form 1547 01:08:59,419 --> 01:08:54,099 as culture deforms and changes and 1548 01:09:02,430 --> 01:08:59,429 shifts and so I think that the the the 1549 01:09:03,359 --> 01:09:02,440 middle-class Christian ethnic 1550 01:09:06,780 --> 01:09:03,369 neighborhood 1551 01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:06,790 was not something the oligarch wanted to 1552 01:09:14,220 --> 01:09:10,210 see and so you started having basically 1553 01:09:16,109 --> 01:09:14,230 cultural marxism all kinds of different 1554 01:09:17,519 --> 01:09:16,119 programs came about which ended up with 1555 01:09:19,249 --> 01:09:17,529 its you know close to being 1556 01:09:22,769 --> 01:09:19,259 disintegrated now in the United States 1557 01:09:24,089 --> 01:09:22,779 but you know the these elements and 1558 01:09:27,059 --> 01:09:24,099 atheism was one of them 1559 01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:27,069 they weren't being given as a benefit or 1560 01:09:31,649 --> 01:09:28,449 something that was going to take us to a 1561 01:09:34,379 --> 01:09:31,659 better place it was done to atomizes to 1562 01:09:38,129 --> 01:09:34,389 separate to to break apart what was 1563 01:09:40,140 --> 01:09:38,139 holding us together I know this is a you 1564 01:09:41,729 --> 01:09:40,150 know an odd thing for someone who wrote 1565 01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:41,739 Caesar Messiah to say but even 1566 01:09:48,269 --> 01:09:45,489 Christianity was attacked as in a kind 1567 01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:48,279 of weaponized fashion you know you can 1568 01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:50,489 have something that is really you know 1569 01:09:57,180 --> 01:09:54,369 that people don't understand how the the 1570 01:09:59,819 --> 01:09:57,190 social construction and the different 1571 01:10:02,600 --> 01:09:59,829 aspects of it are needed for political 1572 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:02,610 power you know an ethnic neighborhood 1573 01:10:08,100 --> 01:10:05,530 can resist something like pornography 1574 01:10:10,770 --> 01:10:08,110 for example a friend of mine was telling 1575 01:10:12,060 --> 01:10:10,780 me that he grew up in an Irish 1576 01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:12,070 neighborhood and he said you know some 1577 01:10:16,530 --> 01:10:14,170 guy came in and tried to sell dirty 1578 01:10:19,169 --> 01:10:16,540 pictures he said the dad's just got 1579 01:10:21,689 --> 01:10:19,179 together and beat him up you know so 1580 01:10:23,879 --> 01:10:21,699 that couldn't happen in the D raishin 1581 01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:23,889 Aidid you know middle class I mean now 1582 01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:26,170 it's you know you just don't have that 1583 01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:29,110 kind of ability to repulse things which 1584 01:10:35,339 --> 01:10:31,449 are you know against the the cultural 1585 01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:35,349 glue and so we're being atomized now at 1586 01:10:40,650 --> 01:10:37,449 the end of it you end up as individuals 1587 01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:40,660 and the state basically is 1588 01:10:44,730 --> 01:10:42,370 complete control over you the the 1589 01:10:47,250 --> 01:10:44,740 component of power is dissolved without 1590 01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:47,260 being you know this extended family and 1591 01:10:52,170 --> 01:10:50,290 so you know what was in back of the 1592 01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:52,180 atheism that was given to us you know in 1593 01:10:57,390 --> 01:10:55,690 the 50s you know what had it been kind 1594 01:10:59,040 --> 01:10:57,400 of weaponized like feminism was 1595 01:11:00,270 --> 01:10:59,050 weaponized like integration was 1596 01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:00,280 weaponized like all these other 1597 01:11:05,370 --> 01:11:02,050 seemingly really valuable cultural 1598 01:11:06,660 --> 01:11:05,380 components have been recognized sure see 1599 01:11:08,010 --> 01:11:06,670 but but hold on there's there's an 1600 01:11:09,210 --> 01:11:08,020 important point there that I want to 1601 01:11:11,010 --> 01:11:09,220 persist a little bit further because 1602 01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:11,020 I've spoken with you kind of off the 1603 01:11:14,490 --> 01:11:12,850 record on this and I want to get it on 1604 01:11:17,820 --> 01:11:14,500 the record because I think a lot of 1605 01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:17,830 people don't understand your your 1606 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:18,910 position as let's say your 1607 01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:20,770 open-mindedness but that sets you up I 1608 01:11:24,810 --> 01:11:22,210 want you to say whatever you think you 1609 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:24,820 know I have to credit my buddy Gordon 1610 01:11:30,150 --> 01:11:26,890 white at are in soup for kind of helping 1611 01:11:31,980 --> 01:11:30,160 me clarify and see this more clearly and 1612 01:11:34,620 --> 01:11:31,990 that is that whatever we want to call 1613 01:11:38,310 --> 01:11:34,630 this deep state shadow government one 1614 01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:38,320 thing is for sure they are totally 1615 01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:42,490 committed to pursuing these extended 1616 01:11:49,740 --> 01:11:46,000 consciousness realms as a reality so 1617 01:11:52,860 --> 01:11:49,750 whether that be in a Luciferian way as 1618 01:11:55,860 --> 01:11:52,870 some people see satanic way or just in a 1619 01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:55,870 how can we weaponize whatever the 1620 01:12:00,390 --> 01:11:57,850 spirits are and you get them on our side 1621 01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:00,400 or however you want to see that they 1622 01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:03,250 have been in that game for a long time 1623 01:12:08,850 --> 01:12:06,640 so that's what MKULTRA is about that's 1624 01:12:11,460 --> 01:12:08,860 in all its different forms 1625 01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:11,470 that's what MK often is about that's 1626 01:12:17,490 --> 01:12:14,250 what all these other projects are about 1627 01:12:21,090 --> 01:12:17,500 but the real trick is while the same 1628 01:12:24,500 --> 01:12:21,100 time that's not only in play but a given 1629 01:12:26,970 --> 01:12:24,510 for these folks they've at the same time 1630 01:12:31,170 --> 01:12:26,980 perpetuated and promoted through 1631 01:12:34,470 --> 01:12:31,180 academia this complete rejection of this 1632 01:12:36,990 --> 01:12:34,480 extended consciousness and what may or 1633 01:12:39,540 --> 01:12:37,000 may not exist there and how it may be 1634 01:12:42,060 --> 01:12:39,550 influencing our world so what is 1635 01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:42,070 reflected back through our culture 1636 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:44,290 through academia through intellectuals 1637 01:12:49,410 --> 01:12:47,170 through mainstream media is oh you think 1638 01:12:52,260 --> 01:12:49,420 any of that stuff is real oh my god 1639 01:12:53,970 --> 01:12:52,270 you're cured so it's so ridiculous so we 1640 01:12:56,100 --> 01:12:53,980 might be doing our 1641 01:12:58,260 --> 01:12:56,110 Crowley and kind of stuff over here in 1642 01:12:59,730 --> 01:12:58,270 secret but what we want reflected back 1643 01:13:04,290 --> 01:12:59,740 in the culture is that that's complete 1644 01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:04,300 nonsense yeah well I think you can't add 1645 01:13:07,950 --> 01:13:06,610 anything to you know to do that I mean 1646 01:13:11,700 --> 01:13:07,960 they obviously look at the MKULTRA 1647 01:13:15,270 --> 01:13:11,710 experiments they are absolutely fixated 1648 01:13:17,580 --> 01:13:15,280 upon basically a kind of a spiritual 1649 01:13:18,030 --> 01:13:17,590 dimension I'm trying to get control over 1650 01:13:24,030 --> 01:13:18,040 it 1651 01:13:28,380 --> 01:13:24,040 telepathy all you know so the this you 1652 01:13:30,990 --> 01:13:28,390 know the reality we have is to to the 1653 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:31,000 extent they can just a completely fake 1654 01:13:37,860 --> 01:13:35,250 one and so I would I would just say that 1655 01:13:40,860 --> 01:13:37,870 you know people just need to keep an 1656 01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:40,870 open mind as to you know what is a 1657 01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:43,930 correct spiritual path they should be 1658 01:13:48,770 --> 01:13:46,480 skeptical about basically what has been 1659 01:13:52,230 --> 01:13:48,780 you know brought to us through the media 1660 01:13:54,450 --> 01:13:52,240 in terms of you know what is real and 1661 01:13:56,490 --> 01:13:54,460 what is not just look to ourselves you 1662 01:13:58,890 --> 01:13:56,500 know look look to what we can find 1663 01:14:03,720 --> 01:13:58,900 inside ourselves with our reason with 1664 01:14:07,170 --> 01:14:03,730 our spirit and and develop our own sort 1665 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:07,180 of spiritual context we shouldn't be 1666 01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:10,570 looking to you know Miley Cyrus or the 1667 01:14:16,020 --> 01:14:13,330 Kardashians are you know even the media 1668 01:14:18,660 --> 01:14:16,030 gurus like Aldous Huxley to try to you 1669 01:14:20,700 --> 01:14:18,670 know promote a theology that we can 1670 01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:20,710 relate to stuff so in my opinion that's 1671 01:14:24,540 --> 01:14:22,480 just all weaponized those are you know 1672 01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:24,550 either they're useful idiots or actual 1673 01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:26,800 life time actors it an expression I used 1674 01:14:31,500 --> 01:14:29,170 for you know someone who has been who 1675 01:14:34,830 --> 01:14:31,510 basically creates a personality that is 1676 01:14:36,570 --> 01:14:34,840 useful for the secret society to control 1677 01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:36,580 the population with someone like Gordon 1678 01:14:40,950 --> 01:14:38,410 wasps and you know with his going down 1679 01:14:42,030 --> 01:14:40,960 to Mexico supposedly to find the magic 1680 01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:42,040 mushrooms I mean that kind of a 1681 01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:44,290 character is being developed you know 1682 01:14:47,730 --> 01:14:46,000 the personality is being developed as a 1683 01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:47,740 weapon something to get that we would 1684 01:14:53,430 --> 01:14:50,890 trust and then and then you know think 1685 01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:53,440 take seriously and so we have all of the 1686 01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:56,770 media atheists today you know don't 1687 01:15:01,170 --> 01:14:57,760 believe any of them I mean it's just 1688 01:15:03,900 --> 01:15:01,180 these questions are not ones we should 1689 01:15:05,729 --> 01:15:03,910 try to be answering in the context of a 1690 01:15:08,339 --> 01:15:05,739 world that is fake 1691 01:15:11,009 --> 01:15:08,349 we have to first recognize that most of 1692 01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:11,019 what makes up our intellectual structure 1693 01:15:17,549 --> 01:15:15,130 is basically you know been deliberately 1694 01:15:20,399 --> 01:15:17,559 given to us and is that in fact 1695 01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:20,409 incorrect it's an illusion so how do we 1696 01:15:25,259 --> 01:15:22,449 get right how do we get straight and 1697 01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:25,269 think clearly well I mean first step is 1698 01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:28,449 just recognize our situation and try to 1699 01:15:34,049 --> 01:15:30,489 have an open mind as we move forward try 1700 01:15:37,410 --> 01:15:34,059 to use logic reasons evidence and of 1701 01:15:39,330 --> 01:15:37,420 course try to to the extent we can learn 1702 01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:39,340 more and more about the secret society 1703 01:15:43,049 --> 01:15:41,440 learn more about the connections the 1704 01:15:44,729 --> 01:15:43,059 WikiLeaks that came out were very 1705 01:15:47,339 --> 01:15:44,739 interesting because they talked about 1706 01:15:49,859 --> 01:15:47,349 spirit cooking which is just the crow 1707 01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:49,869 lien ritual I'm gonna have you back on 1708 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:51,820 I'm gonna have you back to talk about 1709 01:15:57,959 --> 01:15:54,010 that yeah talk about other stuff because 1710 01:16:00,959 --> 01:15:57,969 Joe you just you never disappoint me you 1711 01:16:03,660 --> 01:16:00,969 always over-deliver it's just it's just 1712 01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:03,670 so cool having young again our guest has 1713 01:16:09,689 --> 01:16:06,880 been Josaphat well most famously the 1714 01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:09,699 author of Caesars Messiah but I do 1715 01:16:14,430 --> 01:16:13,090 encourage you to check out his blog and 1716 01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:14,440 all the interesting work that he's 1717 01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:18,239 continuing to do at a post Flav iana.org 1718 01:16:24,089 --> 01:16:20,530 I'll of course have a link to that in 1719 01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:24,099 the show notes and Joe all the best to 1720 01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:25,840 you and I won't say you know thank you 1721 01:16:28,799 --> 01:16:27,489 so much ox interesting discussion yeah 1722 01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:28,809 we're just getting we're just getting 1723 01:16:32,129 --> 01:16:30,249 started here there's so many different 1724 01:16:33,959 --> 01:16:32,139 directions to go and so many things are 1725 01:16:36,540 --> 01:16:33,969 covered but it was it was really fun 1726 01:16:38,609 --> 01:16:36,550 talk to me thank you thanks again to Joe 1727 01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:38,619 Atwell for joining me today on skeptic 1728 01:16:42,989 --> 01:16:41,110 oh I always like to tee up questions 1729 01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:42,999 from these interviews and I'll do one 1730 01:16:47,910 --> 01:16:46,650 here what are the implications of a 1731 01:16:50,759 --> 01:16:47,920 pro-roman 1732 01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:50,769 Bible Joe and I are obviously quite 1733 01:16:55,140 --> 01:16:53,110 enthusiastic about what that means but 1734 01:16:57,569 --> 01:16:55,150 you know maybe you see it differently 1735 01:16:59,489 --> 01:16:57,579 and maybe you'd like to share that with 1736 01:17:01,529 --> 01:16:59,499 other people of course the place to do 1737 01:17:03,540 --> 01:17:01,539 it is through this skeptic Oh website 1738 01:17:06,060 --> 01:17:03,550 it's got to go forum what you can get 1739 01:17:07,859 --> 01:17:06,070 from there or you can just send me an 1740 01:17:10,470 --> 01:17:07,869 email or connect with me on Facebook or 1741 01:17:10,830 --> 01:17:10,480 whatever other means you have have done 1742 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:10,840 that 1743 01:17:16,140 --> 01:17:13,210 as I mentioned at the beginning this is 1744 01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:16,150 a quintessential skeptical for me so I 1745 01:17:19,650 --> 01:17:17,920 really enjoyed putting it together and 1746 01:17:21,930 --> 01:17:19,660 sharing it with you 1747 01:17:24,090 --> 01:17:21,940 was always a pleasure I do appreciate 1748 01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:24,100 you listening coming along for this ride 1749 01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:26,770 this journey and joining me I have a 1750 01:17:32,220 --> 01:17:29,050 number of shows coming up good ones I